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Blackpowder Density

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bingo1952

54 Cal.
Joined
Jan 16, 2008
Messages
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I just threw 6 charges of 2F Swiss, Scheutzen, and Graf. The measure was set at 100 grains and is a Ted Cash measure with a leveling spout. I was as careful as I could be charging the measure. This is not an extremely scientific test; that would require more charges to be thrown. I would liked to have had some GOEX and KIK also but you have to use what you have. Someone else will have to do those comparisions. The following are the results

Swiss
107.5
108
106.8
109.1
112
111.8
Average 109.2

Scheutzen
102.1
106.6
104.1
101.9
102.1
103.4
Average 103.3

Grafs
106.4
104.5
105.8
104.2
103.1
106.8
Average 105.1

As you can see there are varying densities with Swiss being the most dense. This could very well be part of the reason that Swiss seems to be "hotter" than the other powders. I was however a little surprised that the Grafs was more dense than the Scheutzen. You can also see that my measure is throwing heavy with all powder brands.
 
I have not done a volume to wt. test as you have here, but I do wt. charges for a given rifle/powder lot and then mark my measure volume wise for the given weighed charge. It always (best I can remember) is off from the volume hash marks.

I had read an article some time back that claimed (per the opinion of a rather fine shooter if one was to believe his credentials) that a consistently sifted/screened powder,(even to do it yourself), would produce as fine of ignition, shooting/target accuracy as a "better" brand.
The claim seemed to rest in the size and consistency of the grain as the keys to a good powder experience.

Now I am going to ask for forgiveness in advance if this article was from this forum!!! :redface: and I cannot remember it.
 
rick landes said:
I have not done a volume to wt. test as you have here, but I do wt. charges for a given rifle/powder lot and then mark my measure volume wise for the given weighed charge. It always (best I can remember) is off from the volume hash marks.

I had read an article some time back that claimed (per the opinion of a rather fine shooter if one was to believe his credentials) that a consistently sifted/screened powder,(even to do it yourself), would produce as fine of ignition, shooting/target accuracy as a "better" brand.
The claim seemed to rest in the size and consistency of the grain as the keys to a good powder experience.

Now I am going to ask for forgiveness in advance if this article was from this forum!!! :redface: and I cannot remember it.

The old time target shooters, especially those shooting slug guns or BPCRs all thought that a uniform grain size produced better accuracy.

When checking powder density vs volume one must also consider the size of the granules.
Also a denser powder, once past a certain density level may LOOSE performance since it will slow he burn rate.
The Swiss powder is a fast powder chemically. It has a higher percentage of saltpeter and better charcoal (Schuetzen uses the same base wood I believe if its charred to the same spec I could not say). The high polish in Swiss in not graphite either. Its just well polished powder. The milling time, compression rate, chemical composition and polish are all combined to give a certain burn rate. In small arms there were basically 3 types of powder, Musket, Rifle and Sporting. The musket powder was milled for a shorter time the Sporting the longest. The Musket and rifle *generally* only had 75 parts saltpeter and musket may not have had as good a charcoal. This would all be from the same maker.
This combination of factors is why Swiss is will produce the most velocity and less fouling for a given charge weight. Schuetzen is pretty close, but not sure its as consistent. Goex is a rifle powder, its much better than it was a few years ago though. I do not know who is making Graf. If its pretty good powder it may be a European powder or it could be from South America. If from asia I would avoid it.
Goex is our only maker.
Dan
 
As you can see there are varying densities with Swiss being the most dense. This could very well be part of the reason that Swiss seems to be "hotter" than the other powders.

That seems logical based on the powders you had on hand. I did a similar test using an RCBS powder measure. I did not attempt to achieve any particular weight, just set it at an abitrary setting and weighed some powders. The weights and averages are below. But, if you read on and examine the velocity figures it does not bear out the dense is hotter idea. Not that I critcise your conclusions, cause I'da concluded the same thing based only on the numbers your were able to run. The velocity numbers are done with the same cans of powder.

First, average weights:

From an RCBS measure at an arbitrary setting.

Graf 3f
55.9
55.5
55.5
55.3
-------
55.55

Goex 2f
51.1
51.7
51.3
51.4
-------
51.37

Goex 3f
52.2
52.1
52.5
52.2
--------
52.25

Elephant 2f
60.2
60.4
60.4
60.1
---------
60.27

Swiss 1.5f
55.9
56.1
56.4
56.2
------
56.15

Swiss 2f
57.4
57.2
57.2
57.4
-------
57.30

Pyrodex RS
37.0
37.1
37.5

Then the velocity numbers:

When you compare the density to velocity figs, notice that the densest powder was the slowest. :shocked2:

Maybe Dan's explanation tells us something about this? :confused:

Average velocities for various powders with charges thrown from 50 grain volumetric measure. and shooting a .530 patched ball from a 32" .54 caliber barrel



Graf 3f

1405
1388
1370
1391
1396
Avg 1390


Elephant 2f

1135
1208
1215
1215
1238
Avg 1201


Swiss 2f

1546
1531
1574
1558
Avg 1552


Goex 2f

1349
1362
1376
Avg 1362


Goex 3f

1469
1516
Avg 1492 These two velocities were the only ones obtainable due to bright sun and erratic chrono behaviour

Pyrodex RS

1494 Only one good reading due to sun on chrono
 
I doubt the powder is actually more DENSE than American powders. I believe the granule sizing is slightly smaller, because they are using Metric screens in forming the powder, where English measurements are used here. You get an increased velocity from the smaller, faster burning granule size.

I also think that rolling the granules to make them more uniform in size and giving them a smoother surface contributes to consistency in velocities. For instance, As I understand it, the Newish Goex Cartridge Grade powder is FFFg granulation, but its been polished better and tumbled to make it more uniform in size.

The presence or absence of Graphite is only a safety issue, as graphite is a form of carbon, and adds very little to change the formula of the actual powder, itself. Graphite is used to insure that static electricity does not ignite the powder.

According to my Hodgdon Data manual, each size of granule can be a range of actual sizes. For instances:

FFFg must pass throu a screen with 24 meshes per inch; but must NOT pass through a screen with 46 meshes per inch.

FFg powder must pass through a screen with 16 meshes per inch, but NOT pass through a screen with 24 meshes per inch.

So, if you have the Europeans using screen mesh sizes that are closer to the 46 mesh sizing, while Americans use screens that are closer to the 24 mesh sizing, for FFFg powder, the European powder HAS to burn faster ( more velocity) than the American powder will.

A chemist can break down the powder to get the exact percentages of each of the 3 parts of the powder formula used in each factory. But, unless he measures the granules themselves, to test what the screen sizing being used by the factory to make that powder, you are not going to learn much about the burn rates, and resulting velocities. Unless the physical size and shape of the granules are compared under a 10X microscope, you are not going to be able to tell much about how polishing, or rolling or how uniform the granules are in shape affect the burn rates.
 
It turns out I have been studying this subject recently so I will chime in here...

In 1894 Capt. Ingalls of the US Army published a textbook "Interior Ballistics" intended to be used as a text at the US Army Artillery School, then at Fortress Monroe, Virginia.

In this book Ingalls relates that the basic density of properly prepared blackpowder is approx 1.6 to 1.8 grams per centimeter cubed. Some more recent tecnical articles from the Army Ballistic Research Labs placed the maximum theoretical density at about 1.95 gm/cc with many powders being about 1.7 to 1.9.

However, since BP is made in grains, there is airspace between them....how much airspace is a function of the "packing density." According to Ingalls the cannon powders he was considering pack such that the actual powder load density is approx. 1 gm/cc (same as water, ie, specific gravity = 1).

The theoretical packinng density of spheres in a box is about 74% if packed regularly, but about 64% when they are irregularly packed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere_packing).

I measured full pounds of 3F and 2F and calculated their actual powder densities with an accurate scale and an accurate measured volume and I got

3F Goex density (shook/settled)=7158grains/24.98cubic inches =287 gr/ci =1.1gm/cm

and

2F Goex density (shook/settled) =7215grains/27.31cubic inches =264gr/ci =1.04gm/cm

Obviously powder grains are irregular and not spherical, but since the theoretical spherical packing density is independent of sphere size, and taking the average of 1.1gm/cm and 1.04 gm/cm,

1.07gm/cm divided by 1.7gm/cm (Ingall's average)=63% as compared to the theoretical 64%.


Further, Ingalls presents data that suggests that the more dense the powder grains the slower the burn and rate of gas emision but the higher temp of combustion; and the less dense the powder grains are the faster the burn and rate of gas emission but the lower the temp of combustion. Since both gas mass and gas temperature are important to the gas pressure (breech pressure) in a given volume (breech chamber) and these effects are offsetting, the predicted and measured effects of powder density on total energy produced are small. Thus, the effect on muzzle velocity is small IF the barrel is long (compared to caliber)and it is assumed all the powder is burned in the breech before the ball goes too far....


YHS,
rawdog

BTW, the reason I used shook/settled instead of "as poured" was two-fold...my own load powder measure consistently turns out to be low unless I shake/settle the charge in the measure...and I must have forgotten the other reason...! :grin:
 
the predicted and measured effects of powder density on total energy produced are small.


My weights and chronograph figs suggest theat while elephant 2f was 4.9% heavier than swiss 2f, swiss 2f was 22.6% faster. :confused:

I don't think barrel length was much factor since the charges were 50 grains by volume in a .54 barrel 32 inches long.
 
Howdy Marmotslayer,

In the 2001 2nd Ed Lyman Black Powder Manual, using a 32" long .54 barrel with patched 230gr balls, the following is given:

Powder Goex 2F Elephant 2F difference
weight
40gr 1111fps 1082fps 2.61%
50 1224 1206 1.47%
60 1337 1330 0.52%
70 1390 1415 -1.80%
80 1442 1500 -4.02%
90 1480 1541 -4.12%
100 1517 1583 -4.35%
110 1660 1626 2.05%
120 1803 1669 7.43%

I do not personally have any experience with other than Goex powders, though I have heard that the Swiss is excellent. As for the Ingalls data, it is consistent with what I have observed about Goex, and it has allowed me to calculate muzzle velocity from basic variables of powder weight, bullet weight, caliber and barrel length. Answers are within 5% of the Lyman data that I have so far tested against.

As you can see, the this bit of the Lyman data does not support a large difference in the Elephant 2F compared to Goex 2F.

The only explanation I could give you for the facts you cite about large differences in powder strength would be that your Elephant 2F powder is probably bad for some reason.

I have also gotten erroneus results before from a chrony with inconsistent lighting, and such problems...


YHS,
rawdog
 
I don't think that exposure to any elements harmed the elephant. It was a new unopened can. Notice that my results with elephant were only five fps different from the guide figs you posted. The Goex velocities however were significantly higher for my tests.

The explanation can easily be variations from lot to lot. The Mad Monk has documented the variations pretty well. He also documented that the Swiss and Graf had much less lot to lot variation.

According to him, the Swiss is very carefuly manufactured for consistency and the Graf is packaged after many lots have been blended which also reduces variations.
 
Marmotslayer,

Hmmm. I went back to the 1975 1st Ed. Lyman BP Manual and for some reason they only give 3F loads for the .54cal. But a 30inch .54 with .535ball is given as follows for Goex 3F:

40gr....1110fps
50gr....1165fps
60gr....1275fps
70gr....1385fps
80gr....1466fps
90gr....1546fps
100gr...1639fps
110gr...1758fps
120gr...1826fps

That is very similar to the 2001 2F Goex data I gave in this thread for a 28" barrel.

The total energy in either 2F or 3F is theoretically the same. The only difference is in burn rate and therefore peak pressure is higher with 3F. If you could hold the ball in place until the pressure built, the two would perform identically. With a longer barrel, the two will tend to perform more nearly the same than with a shorter barrel.

Based on my calculations and information from Ingalls I expect 3F to nominally give about 16% more ME and about 7-8% more MV than 3F in a short barrel. In a long barrel the difference will be diminished.

What happens in the real world, however, is often perplexing.... :grin:

YHS,
rawdog
 
:hmm: I have found that if one was to examine the granules of Swiss vs. Other Brands, you would find more uniformity in the granules of Swiss. Whether or not you use a metric mesh (if such exists) or standard mesh sizes. The reason why the Swiss was originally identified as requiring less powder than equivalent amounts of other brands was due more to the uniformity of Swiss granules. IMHO-- :hmm:
 
MmSlyr,

I have been under the general impression for some time that the 2001 2Ed Lyman data for Goex2F,3F is "hotter" than the data for the 1975 1stEd Lyman data. That closeness of the old 3F to the new 2F would support that notion, but I need to examine that more closely.

Much of what I have said above in relating Ingalls data would infer that all BP is mostly the same, even across granulations except for burn rate. However, this is obviously not true with powders that we generally have access to. Ingalls was referring to the most meticulously made cannon powders of the US and England, etc, and these used the highest qualities of ingredients and processing, paid for by taxpayers.

A problem today is that BP is no longer a strategically important military material, and has not been since 1900 or so. Chemical science has come a long way since then, but there has been no big reason for governments to fund research on BP like they did in the 19th century....Fortunately the science had matured before 1900 to about the level that I can stand....or understand!

The sulfur and the potassium nitrate is pretty boring....you get it from nature or as byproduct of other important processes and you purify it and that is all doable and straightforward. It is the charcoal that is highly variable.

Charcoal can be made at higher temps or lower temps. AT higher temps there is rather obviously more carbon than at lower temps. At lower temps there is more "volatiles" (hydrocarbon) left in the charcoal than at higher temps. All this is highly influenced by the type and condition of the wood that is used to make the charcoal.

19th Century chemists (Nobel and Abel, and others) determined that the chemical reaction of burning gunpowder under high pressures was quite a bit different and more complicated than supposed by the simple equation based on 2KN03 + 3C + S => K2S + 3CO2 + 2N2. For one thing, Nobel and Abel did extensive experiments and showed that there was a whole lot of potassium chloride in the fouling (about 70% by weight of the fouling. The explanation lies in the composition of the charcoal..... a VERY simple description of "good" charcoal is C7H4O (not just C) and that hydrogen and oxygen content changes everything. I cannot show you the long and complicated chemical formual I have found in 19th century papers...space and my patience (and yours) would not permit.

Here is an excerpt from a 1952 paper I found:

"There is another factor, however, which
has considerable effect on the production of the accelerated reaction, and this is
the carbon content of the charcoal. The above experiments refer to a normal
gunpowder containing a 70 % carbon charcoal. Other experimental powders with
charcoals of different carbon contents were made and tested in a similar
manner. The results are shown in figure 19. It can be seen that the accelerated
reaction occurs most strongly with the 70 % carbon charcoal and to a less extent
with the 77.5 % carbon charcoal. With 65 % carbon there is only an indication of
acceleration, and with 53 and 95 % carbon charcoal there is no sign of
accelerated reaction. An optimum carbon content of 69 to 70 % is required to
produce maximum acceleration."

Research had determined that the volatiles (some hydrocarbons left in the charcoal and lurking) were actually a key part of the initial ignition process and that once some compounds were formed, they were reformed subsequently during the burn... and when charcoal is cooked at higher temps to get more carbon content (which, on the surface sounds better) the carbon becomes more "activated" and absorbs gas (like the "activated" charcoal filters you use to filter bad smell/taste out of water). This lessens the force of the powder instead of increasing it. There were also "brown" powders of charcoals that were made at lower temps with higher volatiles content. They burned slower and less hot (good for cannon) but also with lower overall energy content (bad for cannon).



But my point in all that rambling was that the quality of the charcoal might be quite variable. When a given source of wood supply is changed after years and years....I have read of this happening with the old Curtis and Harvey powder available thru the 1970s from England where they used to use alderwood, but were forced by depletion to change- the force of the powder can be changed because the quality of the charcoal changed.

Here in the US, I have an Army BRL paper from the 1960s that says Goex and others (then) use Maple for charcoal. But sources change over time...

For this reason, I do not expect even the same brand of powder to remain exactly the same over the years or even across different lots, depending on the care and quality control, and the fact that you get what you pay for in this respect.

If you are not careful you also can get less than you pay for ......

Sorry, I have rambled and since I am new on this site I am unaware if this has basically been said before....


YHS,
rawdog
 
I'm a little surprised at the difference between Schuetzen and Graf powders. Graf puts their name on Wano powder which is the same as Schuetzen. I have heard that there might be a slight difference in makeup but that may be only for European market.
 
rawdog said:
MmSlyr,


A problem today is that BP is no longer a strategically important military material, and has not been since 1900 or so. Chemical science has come a long way since then, but there has been no big reason for governments to fund research on BP like they did in the 19th century....Fortunately the science had matured before 1900 to about the level that I can stand....or understand!

The sulfur and the potassium nitrate is pretty boring....you get it from nature or as byproduct of other important processes and you purify it and that is all doable and straightforward. It is the charcoal that is highly variable.

Charcoal can be made at higher temps or lower temps. AT higher temps there is rather obviously more carbon than at lower temps. At lower temps there is more "volatiles" (hydrocarbon) left in the charcoal than at higher temps. All this is highly influenced by the type and condition of the wood that is used to make the charcoal.


YHS,
rawdog

I agree with the second and third paragraphs but not the first. The US military and the mining industry is GOEX's largest customer. God forbid we ever get into a real shooting like WWII but if it happens you will see the sporting powder supply dry up to nothing.
 
I was surprised too. Evidently they do something different depending who they are selling to or perhaps the fact that they were possibly manufactured at different times could account for the variance.
 
Well, now I know why I thought I had posted an article here (Army Ballistic Research Labs paper on how the physical attributes of blackpowder affects the performance thereof) and yet couldn't find it, so I posted it again, and it is still not here.

It was deleted on the grounds of violating the rules (ALL of which I had read and thought I understood) of this forum regarding the posting of anything wrt manufacturing blackpowder.

The BRL article had a lot of information about density versus burn rates of commercially available BPs, chemical composition of the charcoals used and how that affects the available energy, etc. I guess that is skating over the line, which means that this whole thread is pretty close to the line...

Which means I am through with this thread, since I am currently investigating such things from the POV of how it affects the performance of the powders I purchase. I am using this information to build a thermodynamic model of the interior ballistics to accurately predict ME and MV of muzzleloading PRB and conicals in any caliber with any barrel with any BP powder. I am afraid I will inadvertently cross the line again, unintentionally, since this stuff is very much on my mind.

I certainly did not intend to violate the rule. My apoligies to the moderator.


YHS,
rawdog
 
paulvallandigham said:
I doubt the powder is actually more DENSE than American powders.
Actually Swiss is denser. Some Elephant lots were denser than Swiss but once past a certain point too much density slows the powder.
Swiss also contains no graphite.


Dan
 
Swiss, Schuetzen and Grafs are all made with alder charcoal. (given up to be the best)

An aside, but Schuetzen and Grafs are made in the same plant in Germany. I have also read that Schuetzen and Grafs are identical powder.
 
Brown powder invented in the 1880s, was made from straw and contained little or no sulfur. Much slower burning and cleaner than black powder with very good velocities, but was susceptible to friction ignition, sometimes just by shaking it in a container.

It was last used by the US in the Spanish American war in 1898.
 

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