Bokbefok
32 Cal
Excuse my ignorance. Is 20 grains by volume of 777or pyrodex equal to 20grains BP?
Thanks.
Thanks.
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Beginners question regards powder by volume.
- Thread starter Bokbefok
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Yes but 777 has a bit more energy/velocity than black powder or pyrodex. About 20% more if my memory is correct.
Powders are supposedly made/tested to pressure standards by volume. The actual weight can vary from powder to powder and lot to lot. Volume remains a constant where weight can be all over the place.
Different strengths or economies are the result of measuring by weight, because if you measure by weight you change the volume.
Different strengths or economies are the result of measuring by weight, because if you measure by weight you change the volume.
The substitute powders were developed to be at a volume basis roughly equivalent to that volume measure of black powder. Some of the substitutes such as 777 are a bit more energetic that black powder (more velocity) based on the same volume load. Even between black powder, such as performance differences between 3fg and 2fg, there will be a performance difference with the 3fg producing more velocity and higher pressures than 2fg.
Gavin is correct in that the substitutes will perform the same as a given volume of black powder is the volume is reduced by 15% to 20%.
Load development is a meticulous process. Take notes. Use your actual measurements. Select one volumetric measure and use just the one for load development. Once your desired load is developed, use that volume measure to make a fixed volume measure to keep with your rifle.
Gavin is correct in that the substitutes will perform the same as a given volume of black powder is the volume is reduced by 15% to 20%.
Load development is a meticulous process. Take notes. Use your actual measurements. Select one volumetric measure and use just the one for load development. Once your desired load is developed, use that volume measure to make a fixed volume measure to keep with your rifle.
I'll open another can of worms here. There is a debate as to whether to measure by volume or weight when dealing with these powders. Weight for a given volume can vary depending on manufacturer and of course, "F". That comes down to quality control by keeping the "grains" of powder a consistent size. Powder is sieved to a certain size granules that correspond to "F". When some smaller ones slip through, those are called "fines". Measuring powder by weight eliminates that variable while volume does not. This will only become a factor when shooting in competition. YMMV of course.
Artie Peltier
40 Cal.
I agree with Gavin also. If your using 777 instead of black powder reduce the load by 15 to 20 percent. If you go to Hodgdon’s site they will have the complete information on using it.
rodwha
58 Cal.
Of course the reduction of Triple 7 is to get roughly the velocity of most powders. The same volume of Swiss or Olde Eynsford powders (often referred to as Sporting Grade) the velocity will be close but slightly less.
This fellow on another forum compared 30 grns volume in his NMA and tested several powders:
image sharing sites
It should be noted that the Pyrodex was likely old and degraded.
This fellow on another forum compared 30 grns volume in his NMA and tested several powders:
image sharing sitesIt should be noted that the Pyrodex was likely old and degraded.
Bokbefok
32 Cal
The previous owner of the gun [Uberti .36 Rem new army] was using 20 grains BP substitutes.
Walkingeagle
54 Cal.
Using authentic 2fg black powder, the use of grains for measurement is almost equal from weight to volume. Example 50gr weight is same as 50gr volume. So you take something like an antler tine and drill a hole in it that holds exactly the volume of the weighed 50 gr 2fg black powder, and not one bit more. You now have a volumetric measure of 50 gr of 2fg black powder, which will consistently dispense that exact charge. Follow?
Ok, now using that same measure you just made, if you want 50 grains of 3fg black powder you just fill that measure up and you have 50gr BY VOLUME of 3fg black powder. Same with any synthetic powders, or subs as some call them. ALL black powder or subs are measured by volume and not weight based off the standard I just explained. Whenever you read a charge weight in a reference book, owners manual or anywhere it is by volume. All subs are lighter in weight than real 2fg black powder, so there needs to be uniform communication to prevent someone from blowing up their gun.
Reason being as well is that usually we are dispensing powder from a horn or flask and not with scales.
Hope that clears things up.
Walk
Ok, now using that same measure you just made, if you want 50 grains of 3fg black powder you just fill that measure up and you have 50gr BY VOLUME of 3fg black powder. Same with any synthetic powders, or subs as some call them. ALL black powder or subs are measured by volume and not weight based off the standard I just explained. Whenever you read a charge weight in a reference book, owners manual or anywhere it is by volume. All subs are lighter in weight than real 2fg black powder, so there needs to be uniform communication to prevent someone from blowing up their gun.
Reason being as well is that usually we are dispensing powder from a horn or flask and not with scales.
Hope that clears things up.
Walk
Using the 30 grain spout is the volume you are using.
Because the black powder charges are measured with some sort of volumetric device, we commonly refer to the weight of the charge produced by the tube, scoop or whatever, as the charge in grains.
The size of the measure is something that will contain enough black powder to equal the amount of powder that weighs that much.
Although the actual weight of black powder varies by brand and the fineness of the particles, a good approximation shows that one cubic inch of volume will hold 257 grains of black powder.
Using this value, a measure that has a volume of .311 cubic inches would give a powder load of very close to 80 grains (by actual weight). Likewise, a volume of .195 cubic inches will throw very close to 50 grains, .234 cubic inches will throw a charge of 60 grains and .272 cubic inches will throw a charge of 70 grains.
A common way for someone to use when they are making a powder measure is to weigh out the amount of powder using a powder scale. Then, they make a tube, deer horn, hollow reed or something and trim its length so that when they pour the measured powder into it, it will fill up the measure exactly to the top.
Hodgdons web site, has a lot of good information that I did not know. All I can say is wow! I have been using pyrodex all wrong.
http://ns.hodgdon.com/loading.html
http://ns.hodgdon.com/loading.html
There are suppliers who sell measures calibrated more or less in weight grains of 2fg black powder.
At the range I use the one that screws to the mouth of my can of GOEX. It is pretty close to throwing the marked weight of powder in volume to the actual weight of 2fg GOEX.
Note: You need to use a volume measure such as I show above for synthetic powders as they are less dense that black powder and the synthetics are designed to perform similar to black powder on a volume basis. In my 100 grain measure, that volume of Pyrodex will weigh on a scale about 72 grains.
At the range I use the one that screws to the mouth of my can of GOEX. It is pretty close to throwing the marked weight of powder in volume to the actual weight of 2fg GOEX.
Note: You need to use a volume measure such as I show above for synthetic powders as they are less dense that black powder and the synthetics are designed to perform similar to black powder on a volume basis. In my 100 grain measure, that volume of Pyrodex will weigh on a scale about 72 grains.
