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Barrel length/effectiveness?

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TN.Frank

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Just wonder how ya'll feel about barrel length and how it effects the load effiencentcy, pattern and accuracy. TotW has a nice Jackie Brown "canoe" gun with a 24" barrel. While this would be a handy length to use in the woods of Tennessee I still wonder how a gun with such a short barrel would shoot. I tend to like longer barrels and think the 42" barrel on my Cumberland Fowler is about right. I do like the canoe gun though but I just can't help thinking it'd not shoot very well because of that short tube. :confused:
 
Back in the day (many scores ago), longer barrels were needed to compensate for inconsistent powder manufacturing techniques, but thanks to modern standards, powder is consistent and reliable, barrels now days will perform well at most lengths...

A few dozen feet per seconds in velocity is lost with the shorter barrels as compared to the same loads in longer tubes, the powder has less "push time" on the load before it exits the muzzle...

I don't feel the difference in velocity of the short barrel vs long barrel is that great that the overall performance of the canoe gun should be discounted, any musket can be tweaked to optimize it's performance...

I too like longer barrels, but the shorter ones will swing faster with less chance of hooking up in the brush while hunting in dense areas...
 
Good info. to know. If I can sell off my two rifles I just may go for that Jackie Brown Canoe Gun. I've always wanted a Jackie Brown built gun and that one would be a real handy length to tote around in the woods. :hatsoff:
 
The older I get the more I like the longer barrels.

I think a canoe gun would probably do ok with roundballs. I'm not sure how they'd work with shot. I doubt if it would be very well.
 
With all due respect, I must disagree. Anyone who has fired a short barreled shotgun with shot knows they shoot just fine. You can improve the efficiency of the burning of the 2Fg powder you use in a shotgun, by using an overpowder card wad, and a short cushion wad that is lubricated. I take a normal cushion wad and split in half, so it doesn't blow through the shot out of the barrel and destroy any pattern I might otherwise have. By adding mass in front of the powder, it takes more pressure to push it forward down the barrel, whether shooting RB or shot. It takes a few milliceconds more to build up that pressure, and heat builds, and you get more complete combustion of the powder. The more powder burns before the load moves forward, the less powder there is to burn in the barrel, and the less need to have a really long barrel. The reason for the longer barrel is for balance( most of are rifle shooters, and prefer there to be some forward weight in the barrel for stability, or in a shotgun, to help maintain the swing as we shoot) or for giving us a better sight picture. With the aimed fire likely to be taken with a canoe gun, practice will overcome any limitations of the shorter sight radius. Considering no gun comes with chokes, for BP, if he wants improved patterns he can send it off to be jug choked, and it will shoot just as well as a 42 barrel with the same jug choking.
 
It's my experience that long barrels, both rifled and smooth bore shoot better. By long I mean 44" and longer. I've hunted with guns with barrels up to 60" long and never had trouble handling them in the woods or the field.
I've never had a short barreled shot gun shoot a pattern worth a dam with out jug choking it.
 
Conversely, Mark, I have never seen a long barreled shotgun pattern worth a damn if it isn't choked. Barrel length has nothing to do with patterns.
 
I like a long sight radius on a single projectile weapon. As my eyes (along with the reat of my carcass) advance with age I'm grateful for all the help I can get! I'll defer to the opinions of folks here who have more experience with scatterguns than I do. My grandfather had a relatively long barreled belgian percussian double. It was choked so you used a loose fiber wadding. Good enough for upland game. I'll bet that in the eighteenth century a man was happy for every inch he had when the only powder available was musket or "reground" cannon powder! :hatsoff:
 
Barrel length has nothing to do with patterns.
Well, ain't that something. :confused: My experience shows just the opposite. I guess it's all how you go about loading, or how you hold your tongue while you're shooting. :haha:
 
Mike: I guess most of us base our firm convictions on our own personal experiences. I started as a revolver shooter, and I have put 4 shots into a group that could be covered with the palm of your hand at 200 meters, using a revolver with open sights and a 7 inch barrel. I find a 24 inch barrel to be a long enough sight radius to hit any big game at 75 yds and under. Since all my deer have been shot at well under 50 yds, I would not hesitate to hunt with his Canoe gun with its 24 inch barrel. Winchester used to offer 24 inch barrels on its Model 21 shotgun. I have a cut down barrel, with screw in chokes at is 23 inches long, and have no trouble bring ing down game with it. I shoot a slug barrel that is only 20 inches long, that will put 5 Winchester Foster style slugs into one hole off hand at 50 yds., using open sights. And, I have a double barrel shotgun with 22 inch barrels, no choke, that I use to shoot dove, and close rising pheasants, and skeet targets. Now, when we get down to shooting a three inch barrel gun at a target out beyond 100 yds, then I have to really bear down and work some. So, I don't think a 24 inch barrel is too short. Certainly it will burn the black powder loads he will use for round ball. Long barrels are nice. I have a couple of guns with long barrels, too, altho not as long as some of those you build, Mike.
 
I agree that barrel length has little to do with pattern, choke is what makes a pattern tighter. Case in point, all the modern Turkey guns that use 22"-24" barrels BUT use an Extra Full Turkey Choke. I do think that the longer barrels look better to my eyes, more "traditional" but then the canoe gun is a "traditional" style gun too so I guess it's more a matter of what ya' like then anything else. If I can sell the two rifles that I have I just may pick up that Jackie Brown 20ga canoe gun, it's make a heck of a nice brush rabbit gun and I'm sure with the right combo of ball and patch it'll be good for deer out to 50 yrds. or so. Thanks for all the replies guys, ya' helped me think it out a bit and that's what I needed to do. Get some input and think it out. :hatsoff:
 
TN.Frank said:
I do think that the longer barrels look better to my eyes, more "traditional" but then the canoe gun is a "traditional" style gun too

The so called "canoe guns" like the "blanket guns"and "cut back ranger/woodland Indian guns" are very modern fantasy guns created in the mid to late 20th century to satisfy demands of some reenactors.Here "traditional"is in the eye of the beholder.
Tom Patton
 
If I may give my two -cents worth, Re. long and short barrels,
First off this debate's been going on over 200 yrs, so doubt if we can come up with something new!
Have read all the posts with interest, and it appears that one point not mentioned is pressure.
We know a short barrel will burn nearly the same charge as a longer one, and turn out the projectile at nearly the same velocity, but am convinced through firing both, that the best patterns I have yet achieved have been from longer barrels.
My theory, and it Is just a theory!, is that whereas with a short barrel, the shot quits the muzzle at its max. pressure, which sometimes translates to possible blown patterns,
With a long barrel, the gasses are past their peak when the shot exits the muzzle, so velocity is up, yet pressure is somewhat on the way down,...

The reason I believe this is an advantage, is because most of the best old London barrel -borers, inc. William Fullard, & Chas. Lancaster, bored their barrels with a slight amount of relief forward, (So after a true cylinder portion, the barrel tapered slightly wider for the last few inches to the muzzle)
This in turn would allow pressure to drop Before the charge exited the muzzle, Their goal in doing this would appear to be to produce a superior pattern.
If an extra-long barrel is used, it May be, that this reduction in pressure comes about to some degree, from sheer barrel length without need for the relieved portion, and this I am thinking, is what gives me the better pattern.


Please pardon the long-winded post, couldn't figure out how to shorten it!!

Regards, Richard.
 
"Canoe gun" :bull: No such thing untill resently. :shake:
Just as a clarification, when I mention "long" barrels I'm refering to barrels that are 46" to 60" long and longer. The 20 bore guns I've shot with long barrels shoot shot with scary tight patterns. I also had a 28 bore that I used to win pattern contests with against 12 and 10 bores, all guns shooting the same shot load. I could usually get 14 to 30 pieces in a 1 1/8 oz load of 7 1/2 shot in a turkey head target at 20 yards. All the rest of the guys were lucky to hit the paper. :haha: Don't knock "long" barrels untill you've actually tried them.
Ever wonder why punt guns were 7 to 9 feet long? :winking:
 
Mike Brooks said:
Ever wonder why punt guns were 7 to 9 feet long? :winking:

So they can hold a 25 pound shot load... :haha:
(Mike, just making sport of the punt, not you my good fellow)

I agree with JohnRNichols, as our eye relief wears with age, the longer barrels tend to be favored, allowing us to still focus on the front blade...

Another point to consider is the weight of the gun, a short barrel gun will weigh less than a longer barreled gun, a few pounds may not seem like much, but lugging both guns up and down rugged terrain for a few hours will show the difference in short order...

If a hunter/shooter has a weight lifting restriction, then the shorter barrel gun would be the logical choice to suit his/her needs, that longer barrel's weight difference could be replaced with food or supplies if you were having to pack in everything on foot... :hmm:
 
Paul, I think you are basing your opinion too much on modern guns and smokeless powder. Mike Brooks is quite correct in that with black powder, and especially with heavy loads of it, short barrels produce poor shot patterns. And I agree with Pukka B. that muzzle pressure is probably the reason for that. In a short barrel the gas pressure is still driving hard on the wads as the shot leaves the muzzle and once free of the confining barrel walls that push on the rear of the shot column will spread the pellets.
Patterns from my 12" .410 pistol greatly improved after the barrel was ported with a double series of holes to relieve pressure before the choke.
MY 28 gage wears a 30" barrel and I had to jug choke it to get useful patterns and I only wanted something close to improved cylinder.
Last year at a local rendezvous a fellow won a prize on the trail walk with his "canoe gun". The prize was a rubber chicken given to the only person ever to miss every single target.
The blunderbuss has it's place but if you want a shotgun I'd not go shorter than 36", 42" would be better.
I don't know why people are so quick to assume that gun makers of 200 years ago labored in ignorance. They probably knew a great deal more than the modern makers of "canoe guns"! :grin:
 
Ahh, and the debate goes on, was or was there not a smoothbore gun called a "conoe" or "boat" gun? Probably not by name but logic would dictate that if a barrel ruptured the owner of the firearm would probably just have the barrel cut back behind the rupture, shorten the stock and ramrod, move the front sight back and get on with his life using the new, short, smoothbore. Wether by accident or on purpose I'm sure that there were some short barreled smoothbores on the frontier. People were then like they are today and today we have a lot of short barrel shotguns used for one reason or another, same rules of logic would apply 250 years ago too. It doesn't matter, the "canoe" gun is sold so I can't get it anyway. I still would like a nice 20ga smoothbore of some kind to match up with my 11ga. Guess I'll have to look around after I get the money. Talk to ya'll later. :grin:
 
I went to the Springfield Gun Show last Saturday, and I ran across an interesting piece. It started its long life as a flintlock musket--perhaps of European origin. At some point, it was converted to percussion. At a later date, it had its barrel bobbed to around 16 inches or so and the buttstock was sawn off just behind the point where the comb rises from the wrist. It closely resembled what some folks call a "blanket gun". So perhaps there were shortened guns in existence back in the day.
 
Joe: Blowing patterns is a function of magnumitis, which seems to rise with the level of testosterone a man has. Seriously, there is not problem with blown patterns if you use reasonable loads. People keep refusing to admit there is a sound barrier at around 1100 fps, and think they can go above it, even with BP loads, and not pay a price. They can't. It doesn't matter what gauge the shotgun is, when you go above the sound barrier or even get into the transsonic zone, you pay the price.

Much of that relates to understanding how poor the lead pellet is aerodynamically, and why you can't expect to push it through the air in a straight line for very far. If you compare the drops in energy and velocity for any given size pellet shot at the fastest velocity compared to the slowest, you will see that all that extra energy is lost in the first 20 yds. Now, for turkey shooters, who try to wait until a turkey is within 25 yds, in order to get a pattern of shot on the turkey's neck and head to make a clean kill, all that extra powder may seem necessary. But, if you actually read those columns, and then stick with the lower velocity loads, you will find your gun puts lots more pellets on the turkey at 25-30 yds, and kills them very dead.

The guys that don't listen to me remind me of Skeet shooter who load up the guns to help that shot " spread " by blowing the patterns out of their shotguns. They suffer greater recoil, and almost all break down and begin to miss targets when they shoot more than 175 targets in one day. You can look at their score sheets and see the problems they bring on themselves. And, boy do they get angry when a new guy walk in without the most expensive gun, shoots light loads, and scores higher! If you don't shoot modern shotguns just for the increased practice, you are making a serious mistake. Most of the top shooters at Friendship come to that shoot directly from the Indiana State Shoot held the week before. They have at least a week, and sometime two full weeks of practice shooting clay targets before they role into Friendship to compete in the shotgun events there.

Its everyone's choice, but I truly believe you can't fool mother nature, and I don't try anymore.

People also refuse to understand that there is a basic law of physics that say what ever goes faster will slow down faster. In the past, I have referred people to the tables in the Lyman Shotshell reloading manual, not because they talk about black powder loads, but because they give actual velocities based on muzzle velocities for various loads, and then the down range velocities at 20, 40 and 60 yds. Other tables give energy figures for pellets, time of flight , and drop in flight for the various muzzle velocities of loads.

Those tables demonstrate the truth of those basic laws of physics in black and white. It does not matter if the pellet come out of the gun barrel pushed by smokeless powder, or black powder. Velocity is the key.

If people here would read the article by V.M.Starr in Bob Spenser's Black Powder notebook, they will learn the same lessons from the Dean of Black Powder shotgun choking: More is NOT necessarily better. In fact, most BP shotgun shooters here would consider his recommended loads on the whimpy side!
 
I have a custom made American Fowler in 20 ga. LH, with a 30 inch barrel. Being left handed, there is no way it is historically correct. So, I chose the barrel length I wanted, and not what history says is, or is not PC. I could have made it 36 inches long, and been more PC, but I like the 30 inch barrel on a 20 gauge gun. It handles beautifully, yet I can shoot round ball out of it. Craig Witte of Fairmont, Illinois built the gun for me. My brother gave me it for a surprise birthday present, but I don't think he charged more than $1,000. for it. Probably a couple of hundred dollars less. My gun has iron furniture, case hardened, no patch box, and no brass, inlays, or frills. No carving. It has a rear sight notch, and a front sight. Stock to the muzzle, and ramrod, of course.

I was not looking for a frills gun, much less a PC gun. I am left handed, and they didn't make left handed guns back then. I have the wider buttplate and thicker wrist found on German Jaegers, the barrel is half octagon, half round, with a wedding band, like the French fusil, the lock and trigger guard and stock shape is more like an English fowlder than the French fusil, but you have to look close to notice the differences. All American, is what I have. If that is of interest to you, you might want to call him. He doesn't have a computer, and works full time out of his home. He's been buiding guns since he was a teenager, studied under his father, Curly Witte, who is still doing gunsmithing work up in Canada,
and has previously donated a gun to the prmitive range folks at Friendship to auction off to raise money for the blockhouse, etc. His rifle made the cover of Muzzle Blasts back then. He is known at Friendship.

Paul
 
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