BAD turkey load idea

[Lonegun1894]

I didn't want to hijack Roundball's thread regarding the 28ga turkey loads, so here goes. Over time, I have read a lot of posts saying that the traditional way of hunting turkeys was with rifles, or often RBs. However, we all have to live with and follow the current game laws that were not in place back in the old days, so we hunt differently, and for many of us, that means shotguns only. In my case, I can use a rifle or handgun in the fall season if I have a place to do so, but have to use a shotgun for the spring season. We have also had many posts saying that somne of the paper and cloth shotcups at times result in a slug effect. If the interest of using a "solid" projectile as was often used in throughout history, while also obeying the current laws specifying shot, has anyone intentionally made a sealed shotcup/pouch along the lines of a modern "beanbag", or accidentally had this same effect happen to them while hunting? I would imagine that the accuracy of such a contraption would be very unreliable making this idea useless, but seems like it should work IF we actually connected and put it in the right spot. I'm not suggesting any of us do this intentionally, but I keep thinking that since there are several of us who experiment and are always trying to get tighter patterns, there has bound to be someone here who has had this pursuit of a tight pattern go horribly wrong while hunting. I will try this and see what kind of accuracy I get just in case I am wrong, but I would think the accuracy would be next to non-existent, wouldn't y'all think? Like I said, I have no intention of using this for hunting, but do intend to test it on paper, and am curious if anyone else has, weather intentionally or on accident. And in the interest of honesty, it did cross my mind to use a PRB, and I would do so if the only point was to get meat, but to me part of the point of turkey hunting is the challenge involved and the best way to ensure that is to use shot out of a cylinder bore. So any experiences or theories?

 

[rafterob]

A candle load may be a little better. In this type load the shot column is held together with tallow. The softer the tallow the more spread one will get.

 

[roundball]

If the interest of using a "solid" projectile as was often used in throughout history, while also obeying the current laws specifying shot, has anyone intentionally made a sealed shotcup/pouch along the lines of a modern "beanbag", or accidentally had this same effect happen to them while hunting?

LOL...I've had that same thought...I definitely believe it could be made to work reliably by tying or taping a shot cup...look forward to your test results.

 

[gsday]

I had one shot load hold together as a slug while I was testing my patterns in a 16 bore.

I left my paper shot cup long not thinking about the extra paper compressing over the shot load as I topped it with an over shot card.

I took aim at a bullseye in an 18 inch circle.
It hit where I was aiming at 30 yards.

I'd hate to see what a body shot on a turkey would look like with a 1-5/8 oz. slug of paper wrapped shot!

I'm thinking of a cloud of black powder smoke and turkey feathers gently drifting on the wind.

Greg

 

[Lonegun1894]

I have done this unintentionally while testing paper and cloth shotcups, and some of the impacts were very close to my point of aim, but others were also quite a bit off. Now if this was rigged to be consistent, then I bet it would be better, but how good, well, only testing will tell. Now a .527 ball like I usually use in this gun weighs about 220grs, so almost exactly half an oz, so I'm thinking this could be done with 1/2oz to a full oz on the heavy end, but should be fine with 1/2-3/4oz and will less recoil than 1.5+oz of shot. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but a head shot with one of these, while very effective, would be a small target that is very capable of moving out of the way unexpectedly, so a body shot would be the prudent choice. And a turkey just doesn't seem like it could absorb much of a powerful shot so we wouldn't need huge powder charges and shot loads. See Y'all? This is a way to make turkey hunting cheaper on us, and nowadays, who doesn't want to save a penny here and a buck there? Ok, I guess I better get to work on a design for a fully enclosed cloth shotcup. :stir:

 

[roundball]

Yeah, definitely a body-vitals shot...and no question about the outcome.

AND..........if you want to get REALLY creative, mount a bow-fishing reel under your barrel...shoot and retrieve your shot-bag...reuse it and protect the environment at the same time !
:grin:

 

[Nathan Ripley]

Rb--That was funny!

Still working on my load and playing with components. I will probably run out of shot and start having to "top" the modern shells. Now wouldn't that throw the anti's into vapor lock!

On a side note, I've checked hunters for 15 years and have never came across a flintlock in the field in pursuit of any game. I have never found a turkey hunter with a muzzleloader.

My smooth rifle sure has put the fun back into my endeavors!

 

[roundball]

On a side note, I've checked hunters for 15 years and have never came across a flintlock in the field in pursuit of any game. I have never found a turkey hunter with a muzzleloader.

I've been checked a couple times over the years...once turkey hunting, once dove hunting.
The reaction was complete surprise almost to the level of being shocked that I'd actually be hunting with a Flintlock.

 

[roundball]

Still working on my load and playing with components.

What smoothbore are you working with?

My smooth rifle sure has put the fun back into my endeavors!

Same here...I was pretty much winding down my interest in hunting until I discovered MLs, and then hunting became / is far more rewarding than it ever was.

 

[BillinOregon]

At the Battle of Blood River in South Africa in 1838, Andries Pretorius and about 470 other Voortrekkers defeated a vast host of attacking Zulu warriors, killing 3,000 while suffering only three wounded. The Boers used artillery and heavy, large-bore flintlocks against the Zulus' spears and assegais. Among the projectiles fired by the Boers were bore-sized bags of shot packaged in hand-sewn bags made of fabric, gut or very thin leather. These proved lethal.
Sort of on topic ...
:wink:

 

[Lonegun1894]

I asked TX Parks and Wildlife about pellet size, shape, and count restrictions if any, as the Srping season specifies shotgun only but makes no mention of load restrictions, if any. Here is the response I just got:

"There are no restrictions on the number, size or shape of pellets used for hunting turkey in Texas."

I believe this basically says that I can use a PRB, or a bean bag as we have been discussing, or anything else I can fit down the barrel and fire. I will probably end up using a PRB in my .54 smoothrifle, since I now know it is legal being just a load of ONE LARGE SHOT pellet fired out of a "shotgun" (smoothrifle), but will still experiment and work up a load with this bean bag for those times if/when I hunt in any place that does have or decides to implement a rule specifying multiple shot and/or a shot size minimum or maximum.

Roundball, I think we just figured out a way to get patterns so tight with our cylinder bores that the suppository shooters can only dream of ever achieving. Cause I belive this fully enclosed shotcup is well beyond full choke. :rotf:

 

[Lonegun1894]

Bill,
That is VERY on topic, and I believe makes it HC/PC to boot! Gents, we now have documentation of historical use. Now how many of us are gonna feel threatened by the vocious wild turkeys roaming our woods? Anyone? Come on, help me out here? :stir:

 

[Black Hand]

Among the projectiles fired by the Boers were bore-sized bags of shot packaged in hand-sewn bags made of fabric, gut or very thin leather.

Sounds like canister shot to me...(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canister_shot)

 

[Lonegun1894]

I knew there was a name for it, but couldn't remember it. Thank you.

 

[roundball]

I asked TX Parks and Wildlife about pellet size, shape, and count restrictions if any, as the Srping season specifies shotgun only but makes no mention of load restrictions, if any. Here is the response I just got:

"There are no restrictions on the number, size or shape of pellets used for hunting turkey in Texas."

I believe this basically says that I can use a PRB, or a bean bag as we have been discussing, or anything else I can fit down the barrel and fire. I will probably end up using a PRB in my .54 smoothrifle, since I now know it is legal being just a load of ONE LARGE SHOT pellet fired out of a "shotgun" (smoothrifle)

Same answer here...I wanted to be sure I took the appropriate steps of checking with the top authority on the lawfulness of the matter before daring to trust my own interpretation.

And I now have a printed off copy of their Email reply laminated in my vest in case I'm ever checked by a GW to demonstrate the lengths I went to in an effort to ensure lawfulness.

They could still change their mind after the fact if they decided to but couldn't charge me with anything given the documented track record of prior checking & approval process I went through.

Also as I've posted before, my intent is only to try to take one as close to the way the settlers did using a PRB...but since "rifles" themselves are not allowed here the closest thing is a PRB out of my .54cal(28ga) smoothbore.

And I've also posted about my safety considerations:
I'll be turkey hunting on the same private / posted property as always;
Nobody else allowed on the property;
From my years of hunting there, I know there aren't other hunters, people, or houses close around the property;
I won't be stalking going TOWARDS a sound in case it might be a trespasser;
I'll be calling a longbeard TO me into full view;
Taking a short 25-40yd shot while sitting down low in a heavily wooded setting;
I won't miss a turkey body at that range;
And so on...

IMO, all as well planned for, lawful, and safe as anyone can responsibly make it.

 

[Moose Guide]

I asked TX Parks and Wildlife about pellet size, shape, and count restrictions if any, as the Srping season specifies shotgun only but makes no mention of load restrictions, if any. Here is the response I just got:

"There are no restrictions on the number, size or shape of pellets used for hunting turkey in Texas."

I believe this basically says that I can use a PRB, or a bean bag as we have been discussing, or anything else I can fit down the barrel and fire. I will probably end up using a PRB in my .54 smoothrifle, since I now know it is legal being just a load of ONE LARGE SHOT pellet fired out of a "shotgun" (smoothrifle), but will still experiment and work up a load with this bean bag for those times if/when I hunt in any place that does have or decides to implement a rule specifying multiple shot and/or a shot size minimum or maximum.

Roundball, I think we just figured out a way to get patterns so tight with our cylinder bores that the suppository shooters can only dream of ever achieving. Cause I belive this fully enclosed shotcup is well beyond full choke. :rotf:

Suppository shooters just cut around the shotshell until it is weaker than the crimp, they call it poor mans slugs. In our spring turkey season we can use prb but I might try my monkey gun this year.

 

[roundball]

Suppository shooters just cut around the shotshell until it is weaker than the crimp, they call it poor mans slugs.

My bad but I'm not getting this...can you put some more words around it?

 

[nchawkeye]

It's called a cut shell...You cut the shell right behind the shot wad about 3/4 around the shell...When you shoot, the front of the shell separates at the cut and goes out the end of the barrel as one solid mass...It's used for larger game when one only has shells with shot in them...

 

[roundball]

"...the front of the shell separates at the cut and goes out the end of the barrel as one solid mass..."

That's what I thought it sounded like but knowing that shell bodies fit inside a larger diameter chamber than the diameter of the bore, I wanted to be sure I was understanding it to mean the whole front of the larger shell would be forced out of / past the chamber step and into the bore...without there being any pressure problems.

 

[Lonegun1894]

When I experimented with cut-shells back in highschool, I tried different ways of cutting them. If the cut was all the way around with the exception of a small piece on one side,m they worked fine out of a single shot, but wouldn't cycle in a pump. However, when I tried making two cuts, so it just had two small strips about 1/16" thick on opposite sides of the shell, it fed through my old Mossberg very well, and also increased accuracy. Now as to pressures and such, I started with a NEF single-shot with a modified choke, and then moved on to a Mossberg 500, both in 12ga. Now due to the pressures, I never tried this in anything with more choke than modified, and never got pressure signs, but I have no pressure testing equipment so I can't give any numbers. Accuracy went from 5-6" groups with modified choke do 3-4" with the cylinder-bore Mossberg at 50yds. I never tested them at longer ranges so don't know what they will or will not do. But I have gone too far getting into suppository guns so if anyone wants to continue, feel free to PM me so we don't rile up anyone, since I'm sure plastic shotgun shells are definitely post-1865.