Assistance Replicating a Museum Piece

[mahkagari]

Hi, brand new to muzzle loading here.

I have a picture of a .58 caliber percussion lock muzzleloader in the Santa Fe Palace of the Governors Museum. It belonged to my great great great grandfather, Auguste Lacome. Doesn't look like I can attach pics here. I have it posted on another gun forum, can I post a link to it?

I'd like to build/buy a copy. From what I've gathered, it is a Hawken style with double set triggers, a single barrel wedge, and pewter nose cap.

I'm seeing kits that range all over in price range, mostly in .50 and .54. Those that have single barrel wedges have the brass patch box on the stock. Those without the box have double wedges. (I don't think there's a patch box on the other side as it's a right hander. Someone is checking if they can get the museum to open the case for better pictures.) Looks like TOW kits are fully customizable to the appearance and caliber but are $$.

I'm probably looking at trading off some authenticity to this particular piece for affordability. Where I need help is confirming what the museum piece is and weighing the tradeoffs.

So, questions:

1) Can anyone identify the model of the museum piece?
2) What current models will be closest? E.g. Lyman Trade, Great Plains, Pedersoli, etc.
3) Any idea on barrel length from the pictures?
4) Not as key, but I've seen stories posted here about taking bison with .54, so getting the .58 for accuracy's sake is not as important to me. I don't think I could go down to a .50 for game that big, right? I usually use 190 grain SPBTs with 50 grains of powder in .30-06 cartridges for bison.
5) Also with bison in mind, I believe I should be looking for 1:48" for flexibility between PRB and conicals to still have enough knockdown power, correct?

P.S. Here is the Wikipedia I wrote on my grandfather.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auguste_Lacome

 

[mooman76]

You can post photos here. There is a sticky under using this forum that should help you.

 

[mahkagari]

Added pic.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Looking at the picture, that gun allow to have a 32-36" barrel. What catches my eye the most is that it looks like the barrel has a wooden under rib. This would have to replace the metal one on many if not all of the production guns.

 

[artmechanic]

I would say a Hawken full stock (from the photo). As you are a descendant and writer of the Wiki article (good article, by the way), I can't see how the museum would not accommodate your request for a closer examination of the artifact. The information gathered could only help augment what they have in their Collections Database (and maybe fill out the label copy). The Registrar (or Collections Manager) would be the one to talk to for access. The Curator and Exhibits staff would be involved for intellectual content and removal, respectively. I just checked the web site to see if they have a Conservator on staff (they don't), so they will be reluctant to allow the barrel to be removed from the stock to get as much information as you may like. When you ask permission to examine the rifle, be prepared with the information that you hope to get, and be specific. Come prepared with a tape measure, magnifier (a loop would be good), calipers, and maybe ask (beforehand) if you can drop a bore light down the barrel. You may even want to put this request for examination in writing, citing your relationship and the wiki article. An added incentive for them might be a photo of the finished copy that they can use on their website (along with your story (museums love making the past come alive with the present). If you're wondering how I know this stuff...I'm the Chief Conservator at the Autry Museum in Los Angeles. I deal with a lot of firearms and their care, and requests to examine them for research. If you come in with a professional attitude, and a personal attachment, I can't believe they won't help.

 

[galamb]

Except for it having a single key and what appears to be a poured nose cap, you could use almost any of the Hawken Half-Stock kits as the (base) for a build of this rifle.

I would suggest that the barrel is 42" long (rough measured) and here is how I scaled it.

We can assume that the length of pull (trigger to butt plate) is somewhere in the 13-14" range with 13 1/2" being a safe guess.

Using that as an assumption you can do this:

so if the LOP is (estimated) 13.5" and the barrel is close to 3X the LOP you come up with 40-42" (estimated).

Even without handling the rifle, using a good picture or two and a draftsman's ruler you can determine many of the measurements if you have one point of reference.

 

[mahkagari]

The only .54 1:48 kits I'm seeing are 28" barrels. Even TOW only goes up to 36". I see the Great Plains in 32", but at 1:60.

Is 1:60 going to be a fast enough turn for bull elk/bison cows? Or is that mainly a factor for accuracy at longer distances? I'm thinking +/- 100 yards. Usually closer for muzzle loader, but would like the option for longer.

So, copying the barrel length is going to be way down the road but 28" is too short for my taste. Too far off the original. For 32", that narrows me down to the Traditions St Louis or the Lyman Great Plains. The St Louis has the patch box, which I'm 99% sure the museum piece does not have on the other side. That leaves me with the Great Plains.

If I go down to the .50, there's some options to pick up twist speed, but they're also shorter. So I'd sacrifice caliber, length for authenticity, and I don't think the speed tradeoff would make up for the caliber loss against that size game.

 

[Herb]

Galamb has paved the way by turning your picture horizontal. I enlarged it to full screen (210%) and measured it. The trigger guard measures 1 5/8" (1.625") on my screen. It is just like the Bridger Hawken guard, which measures 5.5". So divided 5.5 by 1.625 to get 3.38, which is how much the photo measurements must be increased to get life size. The LOP measures 3.625 on the screen, times 3.38, gives 12.25 inches, which I believe to be correct. The barrel to the snail break measures 10.75", times 3.38, equals 36.33", which looks proportionally correct.

This rifle looks like a Hawken to me. Barrels to 42" are available from Rice and other makers, including .58, which can be cut to length.
It is possible to make a very close copy to an original rifle with all the measurements and good color photos of the wear patterns on the stock and metal. I can send you a list of all the measurements I would need to make a copy of this rifle, about 50 in all, which I used in copying the Bridger Hawken.

 

[mahkagari]

I can send you a list of all the measurements I would need to make a copy of this rifle, about 50 in all, which I used in copying the Bridger Hawken.

Yes, please!

I also see Lyman has the Trade model with a single key, but it is in 28" and is not a kit. Would replacing it with a Rice barrel be an option?

 

[Artificer]

Would the M1873 Winchester, below the percussion rifle, be good to use as a reference point for size/length? I realize the barrels came in a number of different lengths, but the receiver length or buttstock length were pretty uniform in length no matter what the barrel length was.

Gus

 

[mahkagari]

Here's a link to the Lyman Trade that has the single key.
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply....rade-Rifle-54-Caliber-Percussion-Complete-Gun-

 

[Herb]

That's OK if you just want a muzzleloader. If you want a copy of your family rifle, it will have to be custom built with considerable attention to copying it as exactly as a builder can do from photos and measurements. I just prepared a list of all the measurements I would need, or anyone else making a near-exact copy. Will have to figure out how to attach it to an E-mail to send to you. I did it in WorkPerfect 9.

 

[MSW]

don't know if this helps, but this fellow can make darn near any barrel you need -- caliber, length, and rate of twist ... worth giving him a call! http://fcibarrels.tripod.com/

 

[mahkagari]

Thanks.

I think I might go with a kit that is "close" for practice and building skill and then tackle replicating as a later project. Getting the stock with the single key might be the trick.

 

[Herb]

The parts set that is closest to your rifle is Track of the Wolf's Kit Carson Rifle. You can get a 1" x 36" barrel in .54 caliber, or maybe .58. But get the Hawken rifle halfstock for 1" barrel, NOT INLET FOR LOCK. Also not cut for keys or trigger or butt plate. You can fit one key and pour your pewter nosecap. You can check TOW's on-line catalog for parts availability and cost. In my catalog, that stock is $70. That will make a closer copy to your ancestor's rifle than any other parts you can get. Yes, it costs more than the parts you are looking at, but if you do it right you don't have to do it again. Lots of builders on here can advise you in construction.

 

[crockett]

I've seen that rifle and thought it was pretty nice. Maybe there is a curator at the museum that could help. As I understand it today they vacuum seal the display cases and fill them with nitrogen gas so the metal doesn't rust. It might be some bother to take the rifle out and measure all the parts. Maybe make a contribution to the museum in exchange for their trouble?

 

[galamb]

Again, many of us that build do not have the luxury of actually handling and measuring the rifle we want to build (except Herb who has some inside track on a bunch of Hawkens)

And to expand a bit on what I posted earlier (and Herb explained in a little more detail), here is how I started a build based on rifle that I "wanted for myself".

While I made it "fit me" (I have a long length of pull), I could have made it "exact" to the original as long as I had 1) a decent picture and 2) at least one measurement.

This is my first (working) pic that I used to develop my pattern.

Building a rifle from scratch is kinda like eating an elephant. It's only tough if you try to do it all at once.

If you cut it up into many "small pieces", it's not all that tough at all.

 

[LaBonte]

Some suggestions before starting this build (and yes a custom made piece is the only way to get it right....

1) Contact the museum and find out if the barrel is marked with a maker - if it's a real Hawken (and to my "practiced" eye it looks like one been studying them since 19620) the barrel should be stamped either J & S Hawken or more likely Samuel Hawken based on factors such as the shape of the trigger guard, snail, lock. etc. During the California Gold rush years and Sam noted they were often swamped with demand during the period and would sell less expensive rifles bored out to larger calibers - this may be one of those????

2) I would contact Don Stith and Louie Palmer to see if they know of this rifle and if so do they have any measurements, etc. (never talked with Louie but Don loves to talk Hawkens). If it is a Hawken then Don may/should know about it. Another possible contact is Jim Gordon and see if he knows anything about it.

3) If I were to build this rifle based solely on the picture I would start with one of Don Stith's Hawken squirrel rifle kits. Don will generally work with you and should be able to offer one with a heavier, larger caliber barrel in close to the right length.

With all due respect to both galamb and Herb who have shown the correct methodology that can be used to determine the actual size from a side view image, but without at least one actual measurement to go by, you will be guesstimating and as you can see even minor differences in the guesstimates can make a big difference. Based on the length of the barrel beyond the end of the forestock, I'd say Herb's measurement of about 36" is closer than 42". Compare this rifle to the "Francis Parkman" Hawken rifle (their subsidiary, Hoffman & Campbell, more likely made that rifle) which has IIRC a 42 or 43" barrel and you can see the Lacome rifle barrel is shorter.