anyone have experience with false muzzle target guns?

[thatoneguy82]

Went to Gettysburg and was taken by a false muzzle target rifle in the battlefield museum, anyone have experience with such an animal? I'm looking for a fast twist .45cal and strip paper patching. I was wondering mostly what a good paper for strip patching might be? Any first hand knowledge on that and 1850s/ 60s period telescopic sights would be appreciated.... and don't even mention Leatherwood products. http://www.jamescgroves.com/henry/additional.htm

 

[BrownBear]

Never owned or shot one, but a couple of times back in the 1960's I was with a friend as he shot his in 1000 yard benchrest matches. His pick was a particular brand of stationery paper, settling on that after lots of trial and error. Sorry I can't remember more details than the extensive testing he did for his own gun(s).

Other details worth passing on:

It took a long, long, long time for the bullets to land home. The winners of the match were the best at doping wind.

Most of the guys did their load testing and coarse sight-ins at night, putting a Coleman lamp by the target and one by the shooting bench. This was desert country and heat waves were an issue.

It's a very high precision affair, with that particular match allowing 6 hours for 5 shots.

This was open-sights only, with the shooters really disdaining those modern new-fangled scopes! :grin:

 

[nhmoose]

You are asking about a slug gun. Paper patch strips were made at the Ft TY shoots from freezer paper used believe it or not shiny side (plastic) to the bore so the clay in the paper would not wear the bore. 2 piece slugs were used that were swaged together.

Yes Telescope sights were used many by Unertl (spelling) and some by the newer makers and yes they were used in the Civil war also.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Blue Mountain muzzle loaders near Shartlesville PA still have slug gun matches. The muzzles have cross cuts for the paper to be laid across and then the slug started. The slugs are usually two different pieces, one hard lead one soft and they are swaged together. The paper is lubed with ATV and then squeezed to a uniform "wetness" in a press. Modern slug shooters have very expensive receiver sights. Today most such guns are underhammer.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Never owned or used one but have observed many. Slug gunners and bench rest rifles often are false muzzled. Not really rare or unusual. They are costly to make but do offer that tiny advantage when seeking X's.

 

[Pete44ru]

.

IIRC, false muzzles were first added to target-grade caplock rifles to preserve the crown/muzzle from loading/cleaning wear - followed later by the slug/gun factions in the formal target-shooting bunch.

I disremember right now, perzactly where I saw/read an illustrated gunrag article on those picket rifles with the paper-patched 2-piece boolits and false muzzles with the cross grooves for the paper strips - but it was at least 30 years ago.



.

 

[ResearchPress]

Alvan Clark patented his "Loading-Muzzle" in 1840. It was slightly tapered to "receive and compress, or mold, the ball, with facility and exactness to fit the rifling of the barrel". This seems to be the inventors primary aim. It also provided benefits in "saving the patch from injury", loading as tight as desired, besides preserving the barrel from wear.

Clark also refers to loading with slugs or oblong shot.

Chapman in his 1848 book "Improved American Rifle" refers to the 'Clark's patent loading muzzle' several times.

The concept was later adopted by British long range match rifle makers in the 1860s and 70s. In this form though it was to protect the muzzle during loading / cleaning.

David

 

[rafterob]

The only experience I have had with one is when one of our members shot his false muzzle down range, never to be found :haha: He had only shot the rifle about 4 times. If you have not yet read it, look for Ned Roberts The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle. A great source of info on that type of rifle.

 

[thatoneguy82]

Thanks, I'll look into Mr. Roberts book

 

[nhmoose]

It happened to me at the Amanousic club in NH

I launched my GM 50 FM 30 yards in front of the line after putting it through my canvas tarp. I had fired a fouling load with no ball and never looked through the sights for the blocking flag.

Did not hurt rifle or FM filed it under hey stupid!

 

[Rifleman1776]

Couple of them beat the snot out of me on the bench rest aggregate at a big shoot this weekend. I was holding first place in the aggregate until four big boomers with false muzzles showed up. I know what I would like to do with thos false muzzles. :cursing:

:wink:

 

[Richard Brinkman]

Was that at Berryville?

RB

 

[Rifleman1776]

Was that at Berryville?

RB

Yes.

 

[Rifleman1776]

FWIW, the false muzzle is probably important for serious bench shooting in tough competition. The guns that beat me were designed to do just that. I shot well and am pleased with my scores. In fact, on the scoreboard, I had more 10s than any of the other shooters. And, I was the only one with Xs. I had two and no others had any. As things go, I was doing well on one 100 yard target but let my concentration wander for a second and shot just as a right to left wind came up and blew my .45 ball into the 5 ring. Dropping five points in a competition like that just doesn't do the job. The bench guns are also usually much bigger calibers. One regular shooter at this match uses a .72 cal. ball with something north of 250 grains of bp. :shocked2: That wind would not have bothered his one ounce ball as much as it did mine. Still, big bore, false muzzle or not, much is still in the hands of the shooter. My tuppence. :grin:

 

[thatoneguy82]

I think I'll be favoring something intended for a paper patched conical, then my .45 cal slug will be able to defy the wind out to a healthy distance.

What sort of sights do you sport there Rifleman?

 

[fleener]

KH

it appears that you are interested in a .45 cal conical rifle? If so, there are a handful of us on this list that shoot these rifles. If you have an interest in these, start a new thread and I am sure that we will jump in and offer opinions.

I own 4 that are replicas, used to own a pedersoli and I have an original.

regarding sights, I love montana vintage arms sights. Recently put a Neumann on my Rigby.

Fleener

 

[Rifleman1776]

I think I'll be favoring something intended for a paper patched conical, then my .45 cal slug will be able to defy the wind out to a healthy distance.

What sort of sights do you sport there Rifleman?

We (wife and I) have two modified TC rifles. Mine is a 'hawken' style, hers is a Seneca. We fitted them with Douglas premium barrels and Redfield Olympic sights. The peepers can be removed and the rifles shot with standard Patridge open sights. In the match I used my rifle and the peepers. I used to shoot this in 'buffalo' X-stick matches but can no longer do the sit down-get up routine. And, I can no longer hold the rifle offhand so it is relegated to bench or light bench rest shooting. Still a fine shooter that was put together originally to be a versitile platform at little cost. They have given much back. I understand your reference to the slug, but those cannot be used in most matches, only specific slug gun matches. And that is a whole 'nuther ball game.

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[plastikosmd]

They are great fun,
First an original, pierce slug gun

Some more modern versions
Renard roundball

Morris slug

Morris roundball

Second Morris roundball

Morris roundball flintlock

Breisen slug gun

Some false muzzles, breisen .69 to left, Morris .485 then pierce, .45 (slug gun cross paper patch)

Got a couple more in off hand roundball and pistols and a Ballard that u muzzle load and then breech seat but they start to go off topic here

 

[Grenadier1758]

Note the sight obstruction on the false muzzles.

They are there for two reasons. One is to install the false muzzle correctly for loading. The second is to prevent you from spending a lot of time looking for a false muzzle shot down range.

 

[Brian6396]

The false muzzle makes loading a tight patched ball super easy.
I have two, a 40 cal and a 50 cal.
both have old redfield Olympic peep sights installed.
both way to heavy for me to shoot offhand.
These are bench shooters only.