Another .45 Range Report-Barrel Break-in?

[Trench]

Well, I've been having some interesting range sessions in trying to find a load that my rifle wants to gravitate towards. I have a 44in,.45 cal, round-bottom grooved barrel that twists 1/56.

I've tried everything from 40gr to 65gr and when I do get a good group, it's with my 52gr powder charger that I made. So, I keep revisiting it and that's what all my photos are of. I'm getting 3in + groups with anything other than the 52gr measure at 50 yards. My first couple of range sessions produced horribly cut .018 patches and badly frayed .020 patches on the lands. I did a few lapping sessions to the barrel with scotch bright and rem-oil and all the patches come out with just a little bit of fraying now.

However, the consistant tight groups still alludes me. I'll start a target and get excited only to have the group open up an inch or two.

I think I might just have a barrel that's going to need a few hundred rounds put through it before it is going to settle down. I've seem some potential, but its fleeting at the moment.

 

[roundball]

If you mentioned RB grooves in your other post I missed it.
Speaking for myself, I have .016" round bottom grooves and trying .018", .020", .022", and .024" patches found that the .024"s gave me the tightest groups...needed a short starter of course...might be worth a try.

 

[Trench]

If you mentioned RB grooves in your other post I missed it.
Speaking for myself, I have .016" round bottom grooves and trying .018", .020", .022", and .024" patches found that the .024"s gave me the tightest groups...needed a short starter of course...might be worth a try.

I thought about you today and your mention of using a thicker patch with round bottom grooves. In this case though, the grooves don't appear to be any deeper than my standard GM barrel. The .020 is a very tight fit as it is. However, other patching material might be in order. I thought about just having fun with the rifle for another 200 rounds and then taking it to a rest again to see what it is doing.

 

[rabjr]

.024"s gave me the tightest groups..

Same here...I thought you and I discussed this Trench and either I sent some patch material or told you what I used...I may have you confused with someone else too, I don't remember now. :haha: :idunno:

 

[rabjr]

Your rifle, 60gr's 3F, .440 ball, .020 -.025 patch with Swampys bear grease in my hands....I'll shoot the X out... :blah:

 

[roundball]

I'm no authority on round bottom grooves...I can say that after accumulating them in .45/.50/.58cals, two different barrel brands, they're all .016".
From the very first time I loaded one with the .018" patch I normally used in the previous .012" square bottom barrels...they all felt "roomier" with the same PRB combo, not as tight at all...had patch issues and not very good groups until I got up into thick patches to really tighten things up.

On the other hand, remember that target where you were starting to wear out a single ragged hole with a few shots...the other couple shots might have been nothing more than a bit of relaxed concentration, or a flint getting a tad dull slowing ignition down an eyelash.
It may well be that just putting another 100 balls through it over a few range trips will tell the tale...then you'll see if there's a definite trend or not.

In the meantime, if you want, PM your mailing address and I'll drop a few .024" Oxyoke precut/prelubed patches in the mail so you can shoot a couple groups and see.

 

[Trench]

Your rifle, 60gr's 3F, .440 ball, .020 -.025 patch with Swampys bear grease in my hands....I'll shoot the X out... :blah:

You would....just to spite me! :rotf:

 

Believe me, I know what you are going through.

My newest rifle, a .50 that I want to be THE go-to rifle for off-hand shooting, is giving me fits. It isn’t like I’m brand new at this. I have worked up loads for and sighted in so many muzzleloading rifles I couldn’t begin to remember them all.
I want to blame at least part of my trouble on my eyes. The thing is, at the same time (different range sessions though) I’m also working with a .36 I want to use for small game hunting and plinking. I’m not having any of the problems with it that I’m having with the .50.
Until today’s session, I wasn’t even trying to hit anywhere in the black. I just wanted something resembling a group. Today I introduced the front sight to a file and started raising the POI. By the end of the session I had a ten shot group that had half the shots touching and all but one of the rest well inside a 4 7/8” circle (black on a twenty-five yard pistol target) at fifty yards. The one shot that was out can be blamed on a hang fire - a VERY rare occurrence with the rifle. The accuracy is good enough to give me a chance shooting at gongs but nowhere near good enough for paper targets.
The rifle does seem to be shooting better except for”¦..
Since the last session I have run a lot of three and four aught steel wool up and down the barrel, and by the end of today’s session I am getting close to having the first hundred rounds down the barrel. I may have even passed that mark. The first five patches I shot today looked great. The single slit that had been in almost all of them the previous session was gone. But before the day was over the slit was back in some but not all of the patches. Even worse, there were three patches in the last fifteen shots of the day that didn’t even look like patches. They were shredded into a ragged strip. I am at a loss to explain what is going on. Consistency, good or bad, just isn’t happening. Sometimes it seems like I’m losing ground instead of making progress.
For the record, Green Mountain, swamped, .495 ball .015 patch with mink oil lube. Any thicker patch won’t start down the barrel without a hammer, and as far as I’m concerned that’s TOO tight.

 

[Trench]

Yes, it sounds like you and me are going to have the same type of experience. I'm going to try another patch material tomorrow for the heck of it and see what happens. It's a super-tight weave of cotton about .016 thick. I might try some thicker material. Other than that, I'm just going to shoot the snot out of it for a while.

One other thing is that I noticed that one of my lockplate screws has been too loose and works it way out over a range session. I took care of that today after I got home. Who knows, maybe a rattling screw has been throwing my shots off. :grin:

 

I know I keep hoping that most of my problems are being caused by a nut behind the butt plate. :grin:

 

[Bill/Ms.]

Use a larger ball. A .440 in a .45 caliber is seriously undersized.
Be
Well,
Bill

 

[Geraldo]

My first question is always: what does your bench look like? Unless it's rock solid you're taking a chance on yourself and not the rifle.

If your bench is solid, I'd shoot that load that gave you the tight group +1 flier for a couple of ten shot groups. It looks like it's close and more rounds will tell the tale.

 

Use a larger ball. A .440 in a .45 caliber is seriously undersized.
Be
Well,
Bill

I’m shooting a .495 in a .50.

That aside, I don’t consider a .440 to be under size in a .45 at all. The difference between it and the next commonly available ball size is a scant .005. Different barrels like different things. If the barrel has deep rifling a thicker patch is going to be needed to fill those grooves. That same patch might be too thick when the patch/ball combination contacts the lands. Some gain can be made by the cloth impressing into the ball, but there is a possibility that a slightly smaller ball needs to be used.
I’ve owned and shot maybe half a dozen .45s over the years, both percussion and flint. Most of them could shoot .440s or .445s well. It just depended on the patch.
While we are on the subject, I have a hard time understanding how some folks can even get a round down the barrel with the ball/patch combinations they say they are using. As an example, I recall seeing one post where a poster said they were using a .015 patch and a .600 ball in a twenty gauge. A twenty gauge is .615. If you use a .015 patch, that’s a total of .030 because the patch isn’t just on one side of the ball. Anyway you look at it, room is going have to be found for an extra .015. I have yet to shoot my new smoothbore (only so many hours in a day) but when I do, it will be with a .007 patch. It is a snug fit, and I really don’t think I could get anything much thicker to even start down the barrel.

 

[Trench]

My first question is always: what does your bench look like? Unless it's rock solid you're taking a chance on yourself and not the rifle.

If your bench is solid, I'd shoot that load that gave you the tight group +1 flier for a couple of ten shot groups. It looks like it's close and more rounds will tell the tale.

Good question. I'm using a simple front rest on a bench. Because of that, if I can get a 1.5" group or smaller in the black, I'm happy. I can do that consistently with all my other rifles.

 

[Bill/Ms.]

Well, everybody can shoot what they want to. I use a .360 ball with .017 patching and I never have had a problem loading it. I also use a .535 ball with the same .017 patching in my .54 caliber. My suggestion was just that- a suggestion.Do what you want to.
Bill

 

I’m not trying to be confrontational.

Since you mentioned .54s let’s go there. Before it was stolen, my absolute favorite rifle was a Edward Marshall rifle in .54. It loved .535 with a .015 patch. I still have a half-stock percussion with a .54 Bill Large barrel. With a .015 patch it is next to impossible to feed it a .535 ball so, on the rare occasions when I shoot it, I use a .530. Today’s barrels are closer to being standardized than the barrels of the 18th and 19th centuries, but there is still enough variation between makers, and even in some cases barrels from the same maker, that it’s impossible to say what will work and won’t work. Until you start shooting.

 

[roundball]

A twenty gauge is .615. If you use a .015 patch, that’s a total of .030 because the patch isn’t just on one side of the ball. Anyway you look at it, room is going have to be found for an extra .015.

As an aside, just a couple of pieces of info:

It's not uncommon for the term .20ga and .62cal to get used interchangeably...and if the poster was really referencing a .62cal, they are usually .620" bore, not .615".

In addition, while our initial thought is that a patch is on both sides of a ball so we have to add (double) the patch thickness consideration, in reality, the patch material compresses in half so for planning purposes, you really only have to consider the thickness of the patch once, not doubled.

As a real life example I hunt a Rice .62cal smoothbore...a true .620" bore...using .600" balls with .022" patches.
Loads fine with a short starter and is very accurate to the 50yds I've zeroed it.
Yet just looking at the numbers on their face, all that couldn't fit...but it does due to patch material compression, basically 50%.

 

When I bought the .36 I have, I bought a package of Ox Yoke pre-lubed bulk patching that was + - .017 and a box of .350 balls. I had it for years before I finally shot it and was surprised how tight the fit was. It was possible with a hammer, but the patch was sheared at the muzzle. In order to use the .350 balls I had to go to a thinner patch. In order to use the Ox Yoke patching I had to buy a .345 mold. The thicker patch with the smaller ball seems to work better.
Maybe my problem is that I’m old school. I realize that bench shooters use oversize balls AND patching, but I haven’t a clue how they manage to load them. I am used to using a combination that is a snug fit, but one that can easily be started by pressing the ball/patch flush with the muzzle without pounding. I got acceptable accuracy (meaning bench groups far better than I could ever shoot offhand) with that system for over thirty years, with several different calibers, in both flint and percussion.
Trench and I seem to be experiencing a situation where, for some reason, what should be normal, acceptable, accuracy is frustratingly elusive. I have the .36 I mentioned shooting slightly bigger than cloverleaf groups at 25 yards. I blame my eyes for it not being tighter. The .50 will shoot a mostly tight group, but there are always a few of those “how the %$#%^ did THAT happen shots to make me wish I had bought a different gun. The next session I am going to try dropping the charge ten grains to fifty and seeing if it makes a difference. After that, maybe a wad behind the ball. After that, maybe a Tanner mold in .497.”¦.. Sometimes it’s almost enough to make ya want to start shooting .22s exclusively.

 

[Trench]

I'm going to try different patch material and thickness, thinner and thicker. I'm going to stick with .440 balls for the meantime. I'll go with .445 after I've tried everything else.

I too like a ball/patch combo that can pop in with some pressure as opposed to banging them in. It takes two smacks of a short starter to get the .020 in and one really hard smack to get the .018 going. The crown isn't cutting the patches, but all that banging might be stressing it enough along the lands to cause frayed or cut areas once I shoot. Only time will tell!

Randy, good luck with your rifle as well. Stay in touch!

 

[hanshi]

Interesting observations. I, too, have a .62/20ga smoothbore. A .600" lead ball with a .010" patch will load very, very snugly but still not needing a pounding to do so. A .605" WW ball loads pretty tough but is doable if you're careful. A .590" WW ball from a Tanner mold loads, using a .017"(+or-) patch, relatively easily about like my rifles. Which way to go?

Of my two .45s one loads .440" and .445" ball about the same using .017"-.020" patches. The other really needs a .435" ball but does "okay" with a .440".

A shooter on another forum claims easy loading with lead ball .005" over bore diameter with .025"-.030" patches. After 45 years of BP I'm more confused than ever!