58 cal. slow twist barrel

[nwtradegun]

if you shoot a 58 cal. what is your slow twist for round ball. looking for info on the slowest twist barrel and load data.

 

[Walks with fire]

The slowest production barrel I have ever seen was 1/70 and that was a GM barrel. Was reported by several who owned them to be very accurate with 100 grains of black. I own a GM drop-in percussion barrel but have never fired it. I bought it to convert to flint but decided against doing it. Someday I will pick up a stock and lock for it.

Most barrels don't recommend charges above 110 grains so a real slow twist probably isn't going to help much anyway.

 

[mooman76]

Mine isn't marked so the best I could tell, my twist is 1/60. It's a Cabela's Hawken and it shoots well with 60-80 gr of 2f. It also shoots a minie pretty well. Not for target but good enough for hunting.

 

[rushlake1]

1-66 Rice 42 " round radius.
87 gr. 2F Swiss.
24 thousands thick patch.
mink oil lube.
.570 Hornady round ball.
50 yards benched...
pulled first shot.

shot same ball and patch combo using 2f Goex poi 5.5 inches lower.

 

[Semisane]

My 1:70 twist Green Mountain barrel tolerates anything from 85 grains to 115 grains. Here are some of my better "from the bench" 50 yard targets with 85, 95, 105 and 115 grains of GOEX. The gun has a peep sight. I could not do that with a buckhorn.









Here's the gun.

 

[SDSmlf]

Have a TC Renagade (26" I believe) with a 1-60" radius bottom 58 caliber flint re-bore from Bob Hoyt that starts to get pretty happy between 80 and 90 grains of fff Swiss under a patched RB. Have had a few barrels in 58 that required 110 to 120 grains before they started to get happy. Twist was around 1-72". Eyes aren't what they used to be, but recently have had 5 shots touching at 50 yards over 95 grains of fff Swiss from the Bob H re-bored barrel. Same load around 3" at 100 yards. Dutch's dry patch system, wiping between shots. With 1-72" twist need more gun (heavier) or better shoulder. Or more pain tolerance.

 

[Walks with fire]

Now that's some nice shooting there Semisane. Do you have any target pic's of a GM .54 1/70 twist?

 

[BrownBear]

I can't recall the zact twist of the barrel on my heavy 58 caliber GRRW Hawken. But it's well over 70. That sweet rifle is a tack driver at 140 grains of 2f Goex. We've agreed to compromise at 120 grains with slightly larger groups. :grin:

My 1:70 GM 58 cal drop-in is pretty much like the others report, doing just fine at 110, but instinct tells me it wants more. But in the light rifle I've settled on 100.

My other four 58's (two Big Boars, an Investarms/Cabelas and a custom) are all 1:48, and they do just fine anywhere from 80 to 110, as high as I've gone. But they're all light and we've agreed that 90 grains is plenty.

Funny thing. While doing just fine up at 100 or over, those 1:48's will shoot the pants off the two slow twists with light loads down in the 30-50 grain (3f) range. Since I do a lot of small game poking with light loads, they get lots more shooting than the slow twist.

 

[Dr5x]

The old rule of a grain and a half for caliber would have the ideal load of 87 grains for your .58 caliber rifle which you say seems happiest between 80 and 90 grains.

In regard to the purple shouder syndrome Out of curiosity I switched from 3Æ’Æ’Æ’ Goex to 2Æ’Æ’ goes and the difference on shoulder was appreciable and the difference on target required little or no adjustment at 50 yards.


Before I learned NOT to talk to people while shooting at the bench I double loaded with 3Æ’Æ’Æ’ and was able to profuce a purple bruise about two feet in diameter. Maybe I triple loaded, judging by the bruise.

Dutch

 

[Dr5x]

I spent a number of years at the range coaching folks with all sorts of different rifles and after a while began to ignore different twists. I had the same success with T/C 1 in 48 as I was getting from all other rifles.

Slow twist is necessary when shooting soft lead projectiles (balls) with only a slim belt around the ball engaginging the rifling. If you were using an appreciable faster twist, that slim lead belt would be torn from the ball and all benefit of rifling would be lost.

If on the other hands you are shooting elongated projectiles which have a much greater amount of the bullet peering on the rifling, the heavier charge won't rip out the lead engaginging the rifling.
As a faster spin is considered to be a good thing people will go for the faster twist if there will be more lead involved in the rifling than that thin belt around a round bal

Inline rifles seem to be faster twist because the length of the projectile and the plastic sheath that bears on the rifling.

I have advised so inline folks who want to shoot round ball to back off on their powder charge so the ball stays engaged. I have no idea how effective this was as no one reported.

Dutch Schoultzl.

 

[BrownBear]

I have advised so inline folks who want to shoot round ball to back off on their powder charge so the ball stays engaged. I have no idea how effective this was as no one reported.

It's immensely effective in fast twist barrels. I've done some experimenting on my own and coached a few friends trying to cut costs with their inlines.

All that was with 50 and 54 calibers only, but the upper limit on charges and "normal" patch/ball combos (as in reasonably easy to load without a mallet) always seems to fall around 60 grains, with 3f performing better than 2f for some reason. I think confirming your point about engaging the rifling, in order to shoot larger charges a much tighter ball/patch combo was needed, to the point that a mallet was needed to start it.

Generally a charge of around 30 grains of 3f turns in near-one hole groups at 25 yards though, turning the inlines and fast twist sidelocks into dandy small game guns. My principal hunting pard ultimately gave up his inline for a 54 caliber TC Hawken for economy. He shoots lots, and reported he can buy 100 round balls for less than 10 jacketed bullets with sabots, and gets 230 of the 30-grain charges from a pound of powder, compared to 70 of his usual 100-grain charges with the bullets in sabots.

On that note, anyone with a bud shooting inlines and loving to shoot can convert them pretty quickly to round balls, and even traditional sidelocks just by doing lots of shooting with them.

 

[Semisane]

Now that's some nice shooting there Semisane. Do you have any target pic's of a GM .54 1/70 twist?

I do Walks With Fire. Here are the best of the lot - two at 50 yards and two at 75 yards. The barrel is on a Renegade stock. (But I really cheated with this one - it has a 4X scope mounted.)

Notice that the first 50 yard target is with olive oil lube and the second is with Liquid Wrench lube. The same with the two 75 yard targets.

 

[Walks with fire]

Thanks; good shooting as usual.

 

[Dr5x]

Thank you Brown Bear,
My theory of backing off the charge to get round balls to shoot well from an inline was based only only logic or thoughtful guesswork.

I'm glad to see it does work in practice.

My objection to inlines was based more on the the fact that your choices to adjust your loads minutely were pretty much removed. Using pellets instead of powder gives just 3 choices. With black powder there are hundreds of choices. If the sabots aren't right for your rifle, how do you adjust them.
I never figured the cost factor before.
My entire procedure is based on a few nit picky adjustments that give surprising results. There are no nit picky adjustments possible with the inline when used as advertised.

On that same subject I don't trust a lot of cartridges. One of the country's top ammunition suppliers shipped a boatload of .50 cartridges to Iraq @ about $25 a pop and imagine the surprise when they found that no propellant powder had been included in any of the cartridges. I worker at he plant told me that they check every ten thousandth cartridge produced for quality and a lot of off quality ones can slip by.

I have explained to newbies that shooting a muzzle loader is the same thing as shooting self loaded cartridges the only difference is that the barrel takes the place of the brass shell. We get to see that every part to the loading process is OK

I do run on and on”¦


Dutch Schoultz

 

[rijerolmon]

"I do run on and on." And THANKS for that, the wealth of knowledge that you and some others bring to this board cannot be obtained elsewhere. :bow:

 

[BrownBear]

I do run on and on”¦

And thank goodness for that! You base it on a wealth of experience and trials with guns, in contrast to some who run on and on without. :wink:

Your words are more than welcome and much anticipated, while others are simply endured. :yakyak:

 

[nwtradegun]

thanks guys that is what I needed. I will have it rifle 1 in 70.