18th Century smooth rifles

[edw.marshall]

Is there mention anywhere of 18th Century smooth rifles having swamped octagon barrels rather than the more common octagon to round barrels?

 

[oldwood]

Can't imagine there weren't tapered and flared oct barrels on smooth rifle barrels. A couple of Jim Webb's books shows a chart of a bunch of original rifle barrel measurements , from the Appalachian regions of the mid south. Most barrels had some taper , and some with flair. I'm working on scratch building a .555 cal. smooth rifle now. It would have been a taper and flair barrel , except the flaired part in muzzle end was damaged. I sawed off 6" of the muzzle and , good enough...........oldwood

 

[Brokennock]

Yes.

 

[rich pierce]

Yes, especially Bucks County.

 

[edw.marshall]

Thanks for the replies. It seems the only smooth rifles shown have tapered octagon to round barrels (like a fowler) but the stocks were configured like a rifle.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

The bores on rifled guns were often bored smooth for various reasons.

 

[edw.marshall]

Thanks for the replies. It seems the only smooth rifles shown have tapered octagon to round barrels (like a fowler) but the stocks were configured like a rifle.

I own a Doc White built smooth rifle of .62 cal, 1760’s Christian Springs style with a 38” Getz tapered & flared octagon barrel, R.E. Davis early style lock & premium quality figured walnut stock.

 

[Brokennock]

The bores on rifled guns were often bored smooth for various reasons.

Evidence please?

We've been seeking evidence of this being any kind of common for a long time.
Have you been holding out on us?Lol

We have period advertising offering "smoothrifle guns," I don't recall seeing documentation of rifled guns being deliberately bored smooth, however we do read of rifles guns having their rifling "refeshed."

 

[Brokennock]

It seems the only smooth rifles shown have tapered octagon to round barrels (like a fowler) but the stocks were configured like a rifle.

It does seem like most smoothrifles made currently use an octagon to round barrel (it almost seems to have become a sign that the bore os smooth) this doesn't seem to have been the case in the period.
Recently in another similar topic someone replied with data from one of the famous expensive books that has data on original guns that most (if not all) of the guns shown by one of the big name period builders had full octagon smooth bore barrels.
(Sorry for the run on sentence)
Unfortunately, with so many similar posts and topics, I don't remember which topic, who posted it, or which builder.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Evidence please?

We've been seeking evidence of this being any kind of common for a long time.
Have you been holding out on us?Lol

We have period advertising offering "smoothrifle guns," I don't recall seeing documentation of rifled guns being deliberately bored smooth, however we do read of rifles guns having their rifling "refeshed."

I've looked down a lot of old rifle barrels with bits of rifling left over from reaming. I've been at this for over 40 years and had many opportunities that others haven't had.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I have observed very few original oct/rnd barrels that weren't smooth bored. There were a very few rifled but not many. Of course they could have been bored out smooth at any point in their usefull lifetime too.

 

[rich pierce]

Find me a Bucks County “rifle” by Verner or Shuler with rifling.

In Kindig’s big Golden Age book he has a “Bethlehem School” section including some Bucks County and Lehigh “rifles”.

Verner #52 octagonal smoothbore
#53 unknown maker octagon to round smoothbore
#54 unknown maker octagon to round smooth
#55 Angstadt octagonal, smooth
#56 Angstadt octagonal, smooth
#57 Angstadt octagonal, smooth
#58, Peter Angstadt, octagonal, smooth
#59, Peter Angstadt, octagon to round, smooth
#60, Feder, octagonal, smooth
#61, Feder, octagon to round, smooth
#62, Rupp, octagonal, smooth
#63 Moll, octagonal, smooth
#64 Moll, octagonal, rifled
#65 swivel, one rifled, one smooth
#66 John Moll, octagonal, smooth
Many more smoothbores follow; more than half with octagonal barrels.

 

[Brokennock]

Find me a Bucks County “rifle” by Verner or Shuler with rifling.

In Kindig’s big Golden Age book he has a “Bethlehem School” section including some Bucks County and Lehigh “rifles”.

Verner #52 octagonal smoothbore
#53 unknown maker octagon to round smoothbore
#54 unknown maker octagon to round smooth
#55 Angstadt octagonal, smooth
#56 Angstadt octagonal, smooth
#57 Angstadt octagonal, smooth
#58, Peter Angstadt, octagonal, smooth
#59, Peter Angstadt, octagonal, round
#60, Feder, octagonal, smooth
#61, Feder, octagon to round, smooth
#62, Rupp, octagonal, smooth
#63 Moll, octagonal, smooth
#64 Moll, octagonal, rifled
#65 swivel, one rifled, one smooth
#66 John Moll, octagonal, smooth
Many more smoothbores follow; more than half with octagonal barrels.

Thank you.

 

[LongWalker]

Evidence please?

We've been seeking evidence of this being any kind of common for a long time.
Have you been holding out on us?Lol

We have period advertising offering "smoothrifle guns," I don't recall seeing documentation of rifled guns being deliberately bored smooth, however we do read of rifles guns having their rifling "refeshed."

In amongst some old family records I have some partial records of blacksmithing done between 1840-1890. I've not made a study of it, but as I recall the most-common gun work done was either "percussing" good honest guns or boring out rifling. This work seems to be common when examining any extant blacksmith or gunsmith records after about 1840-1850.

(A friend inherited one of the guns my great-great percuss'd: a B. Bean that was "souveneered" during the occupation of the former CSA and percuss'd in the early 1870s. We freshed the rifling around 1999-2000.)

 

[tenngun]

Thanks for the replies. It seems the only smooth rifles shown have tapered octagon to round barrels (like a fowler) but the stocks were configured like a rifle.

I think that an artifact of modern barrel production. Folks that make smooth barrels make them for fowlers. So making a smooth rifle you have to take what you can get.

 

[user 34486]

Except that, as posted above, there are copious examples of oct-rnd smooth rifles from the period.

 

[springfield art]

As much as us fellows in the 21st Century value the originals, and lament their rarity, so many of the actual guns were destroyed by neglect, fires, floods, being discarded during hard times, etc. Theft, etc., all took a toll on the beautiful guns over the centuries! Who knows, maybe even the hyper-patriotic scrap drives during WW1 and WW2 may have had their effect! Anyone else have any ideas on why so many disappeared over time?

 

[rich pierce]

As much as us fellows in the 21st Century value the originals, and lament their rarity, so many of the actual guns were destroyed by neglect, fires, floods, being discarded during hard times, etc. Theft, etc., all took a toll on the beautiful guns over the centuries! Who knows, maybe even the hyper-patriotic scrap drives during WW1 and WW2 may have had their effect! Anyone else have any ideas on why so many disappeared over time?

Is there an implicit suggestion that survival has somehow skewed the sampling, to give an outstandingly different result than what we see today? I’ve studied statistics. That would be like flipping heads 10 times in a row. Did you mean something else?

 

[Brokennock]

That would be like flipping heads 10 times in a row.

Actually, rhat is highly likely. Heads will come up far more than that....

Just watch the documentary, "Rosecrans and Gildenstern are Dead"

 

[brushyspoons]

Many more smoothbores follow; more than half with octagonal barrels.

One of the things that surprised me most about Kindig's book was how many Kentucky rifles featured are reported to lack any rifling. One trend I've noticed in the books I own of documented rifles is that the majority of rifles attributed to southern states tend to possess rifling, while there is a much greater chance for a northern rifle to be a smoothbore. I don't think there is a single smoothbore in Bivin's book covering NC rifles, nor are there any in Pierce's book documenting southern Appalachia rifles. That said, what I have seen is only a small sliver of existing originals and perhaps with a broader depth of knowledge this supposed trend I've noticed is only due to my lack of experience with the subject.