I have a problem with my Navy Arms (Pedersoli) 1863 Springfield rifled musket. With the rear sight at its normal position, the gun shoots 24 inches high at 100 yards. I purchased the gun used from TOTW and have shot it twice. I am shooting 58 cal minie balls, the NSSA bullet, 70g of Triple 7 powder. From off the bench, the shots are all high right. Judging by the hits in the backstop, it appears 2 feet high. I have a bit of shooting under my belt, so sight alignment, trigger, etc is not an issue. I have shot my shooting buddies muskets, and his is right on at 50-100 yards. Has anyone else experienced this? Any suggestions would be helpful. I am already planning to modify the sights.
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1863 Springfield Accuracy
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Almost all rifle muskets shoot high out of the box, and your experience is pretty much the norm.
Try reducing the powder charge to something around 42-45 grains of FFFG. (You read that right. Try 3F, and reduce the charge.)
Properly tuned, with a glass bedded barrel and taller front sight your musket should be capable of X ring accuracy at 50 yards and a 3" group at 100 yards.
I'd recommend either dovetailing a taller front sight so that you can correct windage as well as elevation, or resoldering the front sight with a taller version.
Try reducing the powder charge to something around 42-45 grains of FFFG. (You read that right. Try 3F, and reduce the charge.)
Properly tuned, with a glass bedded barrel and taller front sight your musket should be capable of X ring accuracy at 50 yards and a 3" group at 100 yards.
I'd recommend either dovetailing a taller front sight so that you can correct windage as well as elevation, or resoldering the front sight with a taller version.
ResearchPress
45 Cal.
Many people these days observe that the rifle muskets shoot high, but are not using the sights as they were originally intended. Contemporary musketry instruction says to place the foresight tip at half the height of the v-notch of the rear sight - this will give lower shots. Most shooters I speak to today are aligning the foresight tip with the top edge of the rearsight, leaving them having to aim way off to hit the target.
David
David
varsity07840
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You can try a new blank rear sight leaf that you can file to the right height and cut the notch to correct for windage. S&S firearms has them. www.ssfirearms.com. Best to buy a couple. A new taller front sight is also an option, but soldering and resoldering for windage is a pain. A shallow dovetail works well and is N-SSA approved if that's a consideration.
Duane
Duane
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The sights and loads for a rifle musket were designed around "first catch" and "first graze". In other words at all ranges with the appropriate sight settings you will hit the bad guy/good guy anywhere from the top of his head (graze)? to his feet (Catch) or maybe vice versa.............Then again I may not know what I'm talking about...................Bob
Hodgdon's site points out that se7en powder is more powerful than black powder.
To quote some of their information:
"Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%."
Using this as a guide, the 70 grain powder load you are using would be equal to using 80.5 grains of black powder.
As I recall, the standard powder load for a Civil War rifled musket was 60 grains of black powder.
Put another way, you are using too much powder.
If you want to duplicate the powder equivalent of a 60 grain black powder load and still use the se7en powder, reduce you loads to 52 grains.
The sights and the sighting methods used are probably a factor but before messing with them I would try using the powder load that simulates the load that the gun was initially designed for.
To quote some of their information:
"Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%."
Using this as a guide, the 70 grain powder load you are using would be equal to using 80.5 grains of black powder.
As I recall, the standard powder load for a Civil War rifled musket was 60 grains of black powder.
Put another way, you are using too much powder.
If you want to duplicate the powder equivalent of a 60 grain black powder load and still use the se7en powder, reduce you loads to 52 grains.
The sights and the sighting methods used are probably a factor but before messing with them I would try using the powder load that simulates the load that the gun was initially designed for.
I use 70 grs. of Pyrodex with a traditional minie in my Enfield. it shoots dead on with the sights from 100-300 yds. Haven't shot it much past that. It shoots pretty much the same even if I bump the powder up to 100 grs. I did have to file the rear sight to get it on target laterally.
Lots of good stuff here, Zonie and David have a good grasp on whats going on, I like my one can of 777 bt its all black powder but for a few things I use it in. Fred :hatsoff: Now is that Springfield a SP or normal one? Fred :hatsoff:
Fred :hatsoff:The Lyman Black Powder Handbook specifically warns against charges in excess of 70 grains with standard minies, as they run the risk of blowing the skirt at the muzzle and sending the ball God-only-knows where.
If you feel obliged to burn egregious amounts of powder, you might want to switch to a heavy-skirt minie designed for such energies. But the equivalent of 45-60 grains of 2 or 3f is plenty enough for anything that doesn't fight back, and probably for some things that would.
If you feel obliged to burn egregious amounts of powder, you might want to switch to a heavy-skirt minie designed for such energies. But the equivalent of 45-60 grains of 2 or 3f is plenty enough for anything that doesn't fight back, and probably for some things that would.
pappa bear said:
All I know is 100 grs. doesn't blow the skirts on these.
pappa bear said:
Just me and my opinion but I wouldn't go below 60. I use 70 and it's plenty accurate out to 300 yds. which is the limits to which I've fired it for accuracy.
Russianblood
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I'm still quite new to my 1861 rifled musket but using a Lee Original Style Minie and 50gr 2f seems to be a sweet spot for mine. I have an "extra tall" front sight on my musket and I haven't had a chance to shoot at multiple distances yet.
ResearchPress
45 Cal.
pappa bear said:
I shoot an RCBS Minie in my Enfield. With 75 grains of 2f powder I have good accuracy (won the MLAGB National 600yd Championships last year and 2nd this year).
I have also fired the same bullet at 800yd with 80 grains 2f and that has also shot well (3rd place in club comp. aggregate of 15 shots at each distance 600 & 800 yards).
As with all such generalisations like those made by Lyman, they are not accurate all the time. You will need good casting technique and check the skirts of your bullets for imperfections if shooting with 'large' charges.
David
Wow, I love this Forum. There are loads of very knowledgable folks willing to help a BP greenhorn like me.
I made a mistake in my load data. I was using 60Gr of 3F Triple 7. I figured with the extra 15% power, that would put me close to the 70Gr of BP. What is what I read to be good for minie ball from the NSSA web site. Seems you need enough power to expand the skirt, but not too much to blow it out.
I was hoping someone else might have experienced the same issues I have. And you guys came through with some great information.
I like the idea of glass bedding the rifle. If someone has more info on that, I would greatly appreciate it. I am experieced with CF bedding, but a novice on BP glass bedding.
Thanks,
2ELK
I made a mistake in my load data. I was using 60Gr of 3F Triple 7. I figured with the extra 15% power, that would put me close to the 70Gr of BP. What is what I read to be good for minie ball from the NSSA web site. Seems you need enough power to expand the skirt, but not too much to blow it out.
I was hoping someone else might have experienced the same issues I have. And you guys came through with some great information.
I like the idea of glass bedding the rifle. If someone has more info on that, I would greatly appreciate it. I am experieced with CF bedding, but a novice on BP glass bedding.
Thanks,
2ELK
paulvallandigham
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Usually, these muskets work best if the tang and the back 4 inches of the barrel are bedded. You really don't need to bed much more of the barrel mortise than that. This is different than bedding Modern rifle stocks and barrels, but the work is the same. If you have done the one you can do the other.
Before bedding anything, first put the barrel in the stock and screw down the tang screws to their normal position. Then try to insert the wedges or barrel pins in their slots/holes. If they don't line up, you have a problem with the bedding at the tang, or you are screwing the tang bolts down too hard! Back the bolts off, and see if the keys/pins don't go in.
Now, reverse the test, by putting the keys/pins in their slots/holes, and then see if the tang bolt or screw lines up with the hold in that mortise. If not, you probably need some bedding at the back of the barrel so that the various screws and bolts, keys, or pins are not working against each other.
I hope this helps, and explains the why's and how"s to those who have not tried bedding a barrel before. Frankly, the same test is used with modern rifles, and shotguns( to some extent), too. There is a particular problem in many of the hinged, or " Hooked " breech rifles on the market, as often the two metal surfaces don't mate well, and need some filing to fit properly. Even after they fit together well, bedding both the tang and the barrel to support those two pieces of metal will usually contribute to much greater accuracy, and particularly where that first shot out of a cold, clean barrel will impact.
Before bedding anything, first put the barrel in the stock and screw down the tang screws to their normal position. Then try to insert the wedges or barrel pins in their slots/holes. If they don't line up, you have a problem with the bedding at the tang, or you are screwing the tang bolts down too hard! Back the bolts off, and see if the keys/pins don't go in.
Now, reverse the test, by putting the keys/pins in their slots/holes, and then see if the tang bolt or screw lines up with the hold in that mortise. If not, you probably need some bedding at the back of the barrel so that the various screws and bolts, keys, or pins are not working against each other.
I hope this helps, and explains the why's and how"s to those who have not tried bedding a barrel before. Frankly, the same test is used with modern rifles, and shotguns( to some extent), too. There is a particular problem in many of the hinged, or " Hooked " breech rifles on the market, as often the two metal surfaces don't mate well, and need some filing to fit properly. Even after they fit together well, bedding both the tang and the barrel to support those two pieces of metal will usually contribute to much greater accuracy, and particularly where that first shot out of a cold, clean barrel will impact.
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