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1-48" or 1-66" twist T/C HAWKEN

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Greetings Mossie and All,

The QLA (false muzzle) was incorporated to ensure that a conical was not tipped to one side during the loading procedure. A very, very slight tipping of a conical while loading will cause a major accuracy problem.

This problem was discovered about the time of the American Civil War by the competitive riflemen of that day. That was the beginning of the transition from shooting the patched RB to the conical of various designs.

The gunsmiths of that day solved the tipping problem by the invention and refinement of the removeable false muzzle. The false muzzle was attached to the barrel with metal pins. It was bored to just allow the elongated bullet to just fit without tipping. The bullet was then seated down the barrel on top of the powder charge.

The rifling was of the shallow groove type with a quick twist that varied from 1-18 to 1-26. The bullet being bore size or slightly larger was engraved into the rifling. A lot of experimenting with patching (does that sound familar) was conducted. The most generally used was two crossed strips of high quality paper.

The same basic method is used in fitting a false muzzle to the slug gun barrels.

That these rifles and loading methods were extremely accurate is evidenced by the group shot by G. W. Rowland before the turn of the 20th century. Shot in front of witnesses, this record size group shot at 200 yards was not broken until 1952, and then by a bench rest shooter in a registered match and using a modern (for the time) bench rest rifle using a centerfire cartridge.

Today, at the NMLRA CHAMPIONSHIPS, the benchrest gentlemen shoot a bench rifle slug gun event at 100, 200, and 300 yards. Accuracy at all of the ranges has to be seened to be believed. The false muzzle is a major contributing factor to this accuracy.

The round ball bench rest boys also use the false muzzle idea. In this case the application is slightly different.

The false muzzle is fitted to the barrel before the drilling, boring, reaming, rifling operations and finished in place. Afer the rifling and lapping procedure, the false muzzle is removed and slightly tappered from the muzzle. This allows the loading of an oversize ball. In the case of my 58 caliber BR rifle, I load a .575 PRB into a .565 bore.

Tipping is not a problem with a round ball. A number of my shooting friends have false muzzle rifle barrels on their offhand target rifles and cross sticks rifles. Others (encluding me) do not.

Somewhere on this forum is a picture of my PRB bench rifle. If you look closely the full length photo of this rifle, you can see the detachable false muzzle.

For those of us that are using PRB hunting rifles, the QLA (false muzzle) is not needed. Those using shooting conicals should find the QLA feature quite useful.

Hope you find this information useful.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.
 
:applause: Wow!! Great thread. The 1-48" vs 1-66" twist has been debated around many past campfires, and will be probably continue. Back in the 70's I owned two exact .54-cal. Douglas barrels. One with a 1-48" and the other with a 1-66". Both RB barrels, cut 7-thousands deep. My experience was the 1-48 was slightly more accurate at 25-yards. But the 1-66 was definatly better at 50-yards and beyound. I don't really know the reason for this. Back then I thought maybe the faster twist of the 1-48 was better at short ranges?? Just my experience. Again, great thread gentlemen. Thanks.
 
xfalse.jpg

xfalse2.jpg


Here are photos of John's BR false muzzle rifle..

Davy
 
Mark, the old original Hawken rifles were almost without exception 1 in 48" twist and they shot with legendary accuracy. Most folks agree that traditionally they shot less powder than most of us shoot today. That said, I would recommend the 1 in 66" twist for more power at longer ranges and wind bucking accuracy. Plus the rifle will shoot accurately with a wider range of powder charges. The 1 in 48" barrels I have shot are real picky with the load they want to shoot with accurate performance. That has been my experience anyway.
Don
 
Greetings Cooner54 and All,

At the risk of sounding redundant, the 1-48 rifling twist in several of the modern muzzle loading rifles can not be compared to the 1-48 rifling of the original Hawken rifles.

The rifling in an original 1800's Hawken was cut about twice as deep as the rifling as say a Thompson-Center Hawken.

The same 1-48 was virtually a standard among the majority of old time rifle makers. True, since these gentlemen made their own rifling guides, rifling might vary from 1-47 to 1-49, but the deep groove rifling shot very, maybe exceptionally well.

I shot a number of modern barrels in 40 to 50 caliber with a 1-48 rifling twist, before the longer, slower twist became popular. They were all rifled with a groove depths of .010 to .014 inches deep by men who knew what they were doing. All shot with match level accuracy and with a variety of powder charges. The 50's were particularly fond of charges of 85-100 grains of Goex 2FF powder, but also shot exceedingly well with much lesser charges of DuPont or Goex 3FFF powder

The late barrel makers Bill Large and L.O. Bauska
were 1-48 advocates. One of their barrels with a 1-48 rifling twist will shoot as accurately as a slower twist.

The 1-48 with deep groove rifling MIGHT have some powder limitations (and I am not saying they do), but they do not lack for match level accuracy.

Years ago, an old friend had a factory T-C Hawken rifle barrel. He turned it over to the late H.E. Resley to deepen the original grooves to .012 inch. The improvement in accuracy was astonishing, but not unexpected.

Never sell a 1-48 deep grooved rifle barrel short on accuracy or bet against a man who knows how to load and shoot a muzzle loader with a 1-48 rifling. You just might go home wearing only your BVD,s.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.
 
I am shooting a danish army jaeger m/1800, cal. 0,59, twist 1 in 24", dept of rifling 0,022" (round buttom) charge 85 grs 2F, thick patch (jeans), bullet only thump pressed in, been danish champ a couple of times (all right, we are not many flinters). But a charge of 100 grs makes it throw.
 
I once owned a TC Hawkin that I had bought in the late 70's. It had a 1/48 twist barrel and shot roundballs around 1 1/2" at 100yds. all day long. I wish I hadn't sold that rifle. I now have the 31" and 21" PA TC Hunter models with 1/66" twist and I have not been able to get them to shoot anywhere near as well as that old Hawkin. Anyone have the PA Hunter models that get good accuracy with the rb's?
 
swampman, if you don't know anybody that can shoot with a 1-48 twist, your shooting with the wrong people. i compete against several shooters with t/c 1-48 twist rifles and they are not handicapped in any way. 50 yds offhand and there holding under 3".
 
I agree with John L. and Cooner54. That's been my experience with the deep groove (vs shallow) rifled round ball barrels. My .54,1-48 on a bench at 25-yards just keeps making a bigger hole in the X. And, like John L. says, it likes the 85-100 grains of FF. The 1-66 seems to hold tighter groups at 50-yards and beyound, and is not fussy about load, patch, lube combinations. I mention this again since this has been my experience for the last 30-years. Thanks again gentlemen. :grin:
 
walruskid1 said:
swampman, if you don't know anybody that can shoot with a 1-48 twist, your shooting with the wrong people. i compete against several shooters with t/c 1-48 twist rifles and they are not handicapped in any way. 50 yds offhand and there holding under 3".

When you start talking off hand you must also factor in the ability of the shooter. To make an accurate test try using the same shooter with each type and shoot from a sand bag rest or other equivelent steady shooting position.

Toomuch
...........
Shoot Flint
 
walruskid1 said:
swampman, if you don't know anybody that can shoot with a 1-48 twist, your shooting with the wrong people. i compete against several shooters with t/c 1-48 twist rifles and they are not handicapped in any way. 50 yds offhand and there holding under 3".

Walrus, don't confuse the issue with facts.
 
Greetings All,

In order not to offend anybody, I am replying to my own posting, That is so nobody will think I am targeting them in particular.

OK, it is apparent that this issue about the accuracy questions and opinions between the 1-48 shallow groove rifled barrels and the deep groove rifled barrels will have to be settled in the old fashion way.

NO! NO! NO! STOP RIGHT THERE!

I do not mean with Bowie knives (or any other kind of knife) or rough and tumble, no rules, bar room style fisticuffs.

NO! NONE OF THAT!

I propose a good old time gentlemen's shooting match between the boys with 1-48 shallow groove rifled barrels, and the fellows with the deep grooved, slower rifling twist barrels.

Consider this a formal challenge.

Now if Claude will referee and help set the rules, I will recommend the following rules for starters.

1. 50 yard range. The old timers shot over the
log at 60 yards.

2. Bench rest off of sand bags. The purpose is
to test the rifle, and mimimze human error,
Also, try to put all of the competitors on the
same competitve/ability level.

3. 5 shot groups for size and score. If you
cannot center your shots, tight groups do not
mean much.

4. The month of April ought to be a pretty good
time. Not too hot in the South or too cool in
North.

This should be enough time to polish and finalize
the rules.

Well there it is gentlemen. Any takers ?

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.
 
I have to say after reading this report I must be one of the lucky ones with my 1 in 48 twist barrel from t/c.I was out today and after clover leaf groups at the 50 yard target using 100 grains of 3f and a wad and RB I would not part with this flinter.I know it was made in 1976 or 77 gun shoots excellent.I also have a renegade in 54 flinter another early gun from the 70's and will print the same groups ,also has the 1 in 48 twist barrel.
Bill: shot the Great plains conicals to day I pick up from you ,Hey thay shoot excellent with 80 grains of 3f goex :thumbsup:
 
lonewolf5347 said:
I have to say after reading this report I must be one of the lucky ones with my 1 in 48 twist barrel from t/c.I was out today and after clover leaf groups at the 50 yard target using 100 grains of 3f and a wad and RB I would not part with this flinter.I know it was made in 1976 or 77 gun shoots excellent.I also have a renegade in 54 flinter another early gun from the 70's and will print the same groups ,also has the 1 in 48 twist barrel.
Bill: shot the Great plains conicals to day I pick up from you ,Hey thay shoot excellent with 80 grains of 3f goex :thumbsup:


:bow:

No question, TC and Hornady are outstanding products...but you're not lucky, they're all that way...I'll be running 50 Hornady balls through a .45cal Flinter in the morning, and again on Monday...sure glad deer season is over so I can get back shooting at the range again

:grin:
 
While I'm no Deadeye :hatsoff: :rotf: Every target I shoot and sent in to the contests so far is with a 1 in 48" 50 cal. barrel. It works for me :winking:
Lehigh...
 
"I have to say after reading this report I must be one of the lucky ones with my 1 in 48 twist barrel from t/c."

Me too!!!!I've never seen one that would shoot anything. I've been at this about 30 years.
 
JOHN L. HINNANT said:
Greetings All,


Consider this a formal challenge.

Now if Claude will referee and help set the rules, I will recommend the following rules for starters.

1. 50 yard range. The old timers shot over the
log at 60 yards.

2. Bench rest off of sand bags. The purpose is
to test the rifle, and mimimze human error,
Also, try to put all of the competitors on the
same competitve/ability level.

3. 5 shot groups for size and score. If you
cannot center your shots, tight groups do not
mean much.

4. The month of April ought to be a pretty good
time. Not too hot in the South or too cool in
North.

This should be enough time to polish and finalize
the rules.

Well there it is gentlemen. Any takers ?

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

Well .. is ANYBODY gonna take John H. up on his challenge ? :hmm: Or .. does he win by default? :hatsoff:

Davy
 
Now Davy, do you think ol' John is serious when he says that everyone will be on the same level when we bench the guns???

Just thought I would throw that at you.

That would be almost as bad as saying " Hey let's all stand on our hind legs and shoot at 50yds." Ya think ol John is trying to bait em' in??

rabbit03
 
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