Ottoman Guns

Barud · Jan 17, 2024

@cyten providing us with invaluable data, as always.

cyten said:
Maybe @Barud has more info?

Honestly I've never been much of a numbers man, and Ottoman economics, what with constant devaluation, seem like an almost incomprehensible field to my eyes. I'd trust the info you provided more than what I could put together.

On another note,

cyten said:
View attachment 286302

Is there a specific classification for this type of "enclosed miquelet", or any information related to the type? The only other example I saw was on Hermann Historica and I always thought that was a one-off thing, since it was a rather crude affair (a literal box and not the more gracefully shaped cover here).

XVIIc Wheelock · Jan 17, 2024

Sam squanch said:
Wow. That must be why there was so many bandits back then!

And super wealthy kings, sultans, etc......"keep them poor and starving, throw in a pot of beans and sign them up for their military"!!!

TobJohn · Jan 17, 2024

A person could write a doctorate thesis on translating the daily compensation of a person in a pre capitalist empire to modern wage, so this was a great go at it, @cyten !

cyten · Jan 18, 2024

Barud said:
Is there a specific classification for this type of "enclosed miquelet", or any information related to the type? The only other example I saw was on Hermann Historica and I always thought that was a one-off thing, since it was a rather crude affair (a literal box and not the more gracefully shaped cover here).

The only other one I've seen was also another Bulgarian Boyliya. I can't say I know much of anything on this enclosed type. The first one I posted belongs to a collector in Bulgaria and this one was from an auction.

XVIIc Wheelock said:
And super wealthy kings, sultans, etc......"keep them poor and starving, throw in a pot of beans and sign them up for their military"!!!

unfortunately, corruption has always afflicted these regions.

TobJohn said:
A person could write a doctorate thesis on translating the daily compensation of a person in a pre capitalist empire to modern wage, so this was a great go at it, @cyten !

The 30 page paper I got the wage info from probably was someone's thesis!

I'm interested in comparing what a rifle cost in the same period in the USA if anyone knows?

Sam squanch · Jan 18, 2024

Maybe the enclosed type was a solution to prevent a damaged mainspring, and another surface to decorate and charge more $$ for the gun.

XVIIc Wheelock · Jan 18, 2024

An interesting sidebar video of the Ottoman Empire:

dracer · Jan 18, 2024

cyten said:
Oh boy, I have gone into things I never thought I'd research today, ancient currencies/their gold or silver content, Ottoman wages, math etc.

So, according to "Real Wages and Standards of Living in the Ottoman Empire, 1489-1914" by Süleyman Özmucur & Şevket Pamuk, the average daily wage from 1790-1859 for an unskilled worker was 5.6g of silver, equaling $0.23 & a skilled worker was 10.3g of silver, which was $0.42
There is no info on how many hours were in a workday or how many days of work in month. So, if we go by modern standards, you're looking at roughly $5-$9 a month. If you're a skilled worker, a low end gun made in Tetovo is costing you 2 months salary.

Maybe @Barud has more info?

btw, the way I am estimating the value in period dollars is by taking the silver or gold content of US dollar coins from the nearest equivalent year and comparing with the content of the currency in question, and using the CPI inflation calculator to see todays prices. This is outside my wheelhouse, so if anyone is more well versed in this sort of thing, please speak up!

some times I feel like that is still all I get a month

Rudyard · Jan 18, 2024

cyten said:
I found some information regarding the prices these guns would have cost.

In 1859 it was noted in the French Geographical Society that in Sliven, Bulgaria that a very finely decorated Boyliya cost 15 Napoleans. This would be equivalent to just about $60 at the time. Here is an example of what one could probably expect for this price. $2217 in 2024
View attachment 286288
View attachment 286302

Nurkov writes in "От Лъка До Кримката" (From Bow to Flint) Guns made in Tetovo (Macedonia) sold for between 4-50 gold coins. Whether they mean Napoleans or Kurush makes a very small difference but that averages out to $17-$210. He also writes that a merchant called Hadji Peter, sent at least 10 loads of guns from Tetovo to Egypt because they were sold for their weight in gold. Here is an example of a Macedonian gun that could have come from Tetovo. $628-$7761 in 2024
View attachment 286299
View attachment 286301
And a painting from Egypt with a "Makedonka" possibly from on of Hadji Peter's Tetovo shipments.
View attachment 286320

According to a mid to late 18th century document from the French Consul in the Caucasus, Peysonel, a decorated gun made in Istanbul cost 6 Tumani which was equal to $150. Here is a Shishane that may fit that bill and is dated to 1797-1798. $3740 in 2024

View attachment 286306

In the 1787 "Tableau du commerce de la Grece" regarding the shipment and sales of arms from Brescia (Italy) to Greece, it is written that the usual price for a "firelock" is about 7 piastres which is a little over $6.50 and a pair of pistols is around 11 about $10. It is written that guns adorned with gold and silver as well as engraving near the breech are the most requested. They may have looked something like this. $214-$330 in 2024

View attachment 286549

C.R. Cockerell writes in his journal that in 1810 Turkish subjects in preparation for war with Russia could go to the government and receive 200-300 piastres in order to equip themselves with "a brace of pistols, a broadsword, & a musket, more often chosen for its silver inlay than its efficiency." This equals out to about $47-$71. Maybe that pay would cover all this? $1172-$1770 in 2024
View attachment 286319

Rudyard · Jan 18, 2024

I seem to have missed a lot re prices what I did catch my eye was that plain migulet with stocking very like mid 17c stocking style Swiss its like a carbine of Felix Werder of Zurich other than the lock not being early flint.I made a copy 'After' F Werder hence it caught my eye .I just finnished an Omani ish M lock to use up a spare Brl & a nice bit of Sycomore I ruined in error but joined it so's not to waste it .Pic later .Wonderful researching going on really great stuff . Salutations to you all .
Rudyard

rickystl · Jan 18, 2024

Sam squanch said:
Maybe the enclosed type was a solution to prevent a damaged mainspring, and another surface to decorate and charge more $$ for the gun.

Great Thread ALL.

At some point between the early and middle 18th Century the Spanish miquelet locks begun to show up with what we call a "bridge". This is a single connecting piece between the cock and the pan/frizzen screw. An overall reinforcement addition to the miquelet lock. Virtually all of the Ottoman/Balkan locks copied this feature. And often, these bridge pieces were decorated to enhance the appearance of the lock. In the case of the above examples, taken to the extreme.

Rick

rickystl · Jan 23, 2024

An interesting Ottoman rifle converted to percussion - utilizing the original cock.

Rick

https://www.czernys.com/asta-138/?o=108758

TobJohn · Jan 23, 2024

Oooooo now that is a fun one. The fees and shipping will probably cost more than the gun!

bobi13 · Feb 2, 2024

In 1859 it was noted in the French Geographical Society that in Sliven, Bulgaria that a very finely decorated Boyliya cost 15 Napoleans. This would be equivalent to just about $60 at the time. Here is an example of what one could probably expect for this price. $2217 in 2024
View attachment 286288
View attachment 286302

Hello, I, as a Bulgarian, will make a little clarification. In Bulgaria, when you say 1 Napoleon, it means 20 gold francs, 6.45 grams of gold, 21.6 carats. So, at today's price for gold, 1 napoleon is worth 735 Bulgarian leva or 408 dollars, and it turns out that 15 napoleons at 408 dollars - 6120 dollars for one Sliven Boylia. A few days ago, a friend of mine in Bulgaria bought a Sliven boiler from England for 2400 pounds + 36% commission + money transfer fee + shipping to Bulgaria and it cost about 8000 Bulgarian leva or 4444 dollars.

bobi13 · Feb 2, 2024

Here is a Gabrovo shishane that I had the honor of restoring.

bobi13 · Feb 2, 2024

More images

rickystl · Feb 2, 2024

Hi Bobi

You are a Master in restoration. What a beautiful piece. Looks too nice to take it in the field and shoot. LOL But I would probably do so. LOL Do you have a photo showing the lock ?

Rick

cyten · Feb 2, 2024

rickystl said:
An interesting Ottoman rifle converted to percussion - utilizing the original cock.

Rick

https://www.czernys.com/asta-138/?o=108758

Wow that’s cool, I have seen maybe one other with an almost identical converison.

bobi13 said:
In 1859 it was noted in the French Geographical Society that in Sliven, Bulgaria that a very finely decorated Boyliya cost 15 Napoleans. This would be equivalent to just about $60 at the time. Here is an example of what one could probably expect for this price. $2217 in 2024
View attachment 286288
View attachment 286302

Hello, I, as a Bulgarian, will make a little clarification. In Bulgaria, when you say 1 Napoleon, it means 20 gold francs, 6.45 grams of gold, 21.6 carats. So, at today's price for gold, 1 napoleon is worth 735 Bulgarian leva or 408 dollars, and it turns out that 15 napoleons at 408 dollars - 6120 dollars for one Sliven Boylia. A few days ago, a friend of mine in Bulgaria bought a Sliven boiler from England for 2400 pounds + 36% commission + money transfer fee + shipping to Bulgaria and it cost about 8000 Bulgarian leva or 4444 dollars.

Thank you for the clarification Bobi! I was hoping someone with more knowledge in that field could step in!
And what a beautiful restoration job! I would love to see the other side with the lock

rickystl · Feb 2, 2024

Hi Cyten

I once saw an East India Pattern Brown Bess musket with that style conversion. And 2-3 early 1800's North American rifles with the same. This is just the first Ottoman style I've seen using the original hammer. I guess one was bound to turn up in my lifetime. LOL

Rick

Barud · Feb 12, 2024

Something odd that I stumbled upon in Wikipedia; Martini-action rifles made to handle like traditional Ottoman/Caucasian muzzleloaders through massive modification of the stock-receiver interface.

rickystl · Feb 12, 2024

Hi Barud

Thanks for the photo. I seen this stock modification done to half a dozen guns, including an 1853 Enfield and a Third Model Brown Bess. They rarely come up for auction. When they do, they usually fetch a high price. The guy on the right in the photo holding that Caucasian stocked Martini would fetch a good price at auction.

Rick

Ottoman Guns

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