Kibler vs. TVM.

I haven't laid hands on a Kibler, but I did receive a TVM Southern rifle in December. I have zero complaints about the rifle, and fell the price was fair.

Hi,
Jim Kibler's rifle is better balanced, has superior lock and hardware in all respects, and has architecture closely following an original rifle with some improvements designed by Jim. Jim is unquestionably one of the finest makers but equally important, one of the best gun designers working today. All of the TVM rifles and smoothbores I have worked over or repaired over the years were pretty well made, often had adequate parts that sometimes could have been better, and the stocks had thick webs of wood between the barrel and ramrod channels making the fore stocks look clumsy. They all had wide flats around the locks and side plates making them look a bit slab sided. Kibler rifles have style that makes you turn your head to notice and want to handle. TVM guns, not so much. TVM guns show short cuts to cut cost; Kibler guns, never.

dave

I shot my Kibler SMR at a NMLRA match this weekend AND everyone sad the same thing. "Man, that thing is fast!"

You can purchase what you want....but I would go with the Kibler. Jim Kibler stands behind his products 100%...Period. Their was one of his customers a couple weeks ago who had owned one of his kits for over a year. The fellow had a minor issue with it. They took care of it....Try that with some of the other companies and see how it works out for you...?
By the way I don't own any Kibler products...but I do know a excellent company and that is Jim Kibler...

No matter which one you choose it's still a "win-win" project. I don't have a Kibler but do have more than one TVM and love them.

The OP mentioned getting the Woodsrunner in the white to finish it. One must disassemble the gun to finish it. The Woodsrunner is almost as easy to put together as it is to finish. The exception being the patch box and wiping rod, which are not difficult at all.

Flint62Smoothie said:

With an 18-month wait, and questionable receipt of the said gun, and there’s no way I could tell you to go with the TVM over a Kibler!

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I'm not waiting 18 months for a gun to be built.!
Kibler gets my vote too....

Mike in FL said:

Based on the value and quality Jim Kibler offers, I was all set to get a Woodsrunner even though I prefer a barrel longer than 39". All the reviews and videos of building of a Kibler is proof enough they are likely the best deal for an historically correct and gorgeous rifle. I am not at all handy. I mean NOT AT ALL. So I was going to get an "in the white" kit.
Then I happened to see that TVM will make a gun for me completely finished with Siler lock and name brand barrel, custom length and swamped, choice of hardware. Basic Southern has 36 or 42" barrel. The 42 is more aesthetically pleasing at least to me, but 44 would be even prettier, which they offer at extra cost. Choice of wood. Just comparing their basic Southern plain maple or walnut or late PA with Jimr's Woodsrunner or Colonial, a finished TVM rifle is just a tad more money with more possibility to upgrade.
What would you do? Take a look at Tenn Valley Mfg if you haven't seen them. U had one many years agi in .36. The Poor Boy model, no entry thimble, very plain wood, no toe plate. But looked good because of the longer barrel.
All I have now is a Pedersoli GPR flinter. It is so very heavy and doesn't have the graceful lines of a longrifle.

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I would avoid TVM there’s so much more out there! I purchased two rifles from them one off the shelf and one custom. The one off the shelf is an SMR and a good shooter. I shot it when I purchased it and then put it in the closet where it sat in a climate controlled environment until a few months ago. Pulled it out to play with and the stock was cracked. It shrunk so badly that the butt plate had to be shortened and the stock reshaped to get the butt plate to fit with no tension! Wet wood period! I recently disassembled the entire rifle to check the barrel to see if the barrel tabs were slotted. They we’re not. I also was investigating another crack that appeared but was always there only they hid it. When I removed the barrel the barrel channel was not there the ramrod was in plain sight! From the breach to about 12 inches forward! The rifle stock was cracked when assembled they glued it up but from shrinkage it opened up at the ramrod entry point. Go back and search on my post with this issue which doesn’t include what I have said here. The entry pipe thimbles were blackened but not finished the parting lines are what your eyes see when you look at them. Poor poor workmanship! I opened up the tabs and reglued the existing cracks. The rifle works but wasn’t worth at all what I paid 2400 plus 100 to ship it. I gave them the benefit of doubt entially but it didn’t take me long to figure out they took me! There customer service options if you have a problem will cost you big they take no responsibility. They sound real sweet and concerned when talking to them but in the end it will cost you! That’s the first rifle! The second im not going to get into but worse same shrinkage issues and it was a bobus looking rifle. I gave it to a master builder and had it fixed and carved. Now I have a beautiful rifle! But at the cost of almost scratch built. The most frustrating thing is the name on the barrel! I had it removed from the redone rifle. How anyone could put there name on builds like these. I don’t believe he built them any way the inletting was done by either a beginner or hack. Make no mistake they both looked okay when fully assembled but it is what is under all the furniture, the carving oor inletting and finishing of the furniture where they failed. In addition they have a problem with humidity there and openly admitted to loaning finished rifles to dryer areas that came back after a year and non of the furniture fit the rifle stoc shrunk so bad. I’ve said enough don’t be fooled an heirloom quality flintlock they are not! With what Kimbler is now offering there is no reason to buy anything else! I wish I had the cash id certainly buy his most recent release the woodrunner with a fully carved stock! Absolutely gorgeous imo!

Kilo Charlie said:

I haven't laid hands on a Kibler, but I did receive a TVM Southern rifle in December. I have zero complaints about the rifle, and fell the price was fair.

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Take the butt plate off and see what is underneath mine was not epoxy it was some type of filler fiberglass I think. Did they remove all the parting lines from the furniture. Did you remove the barrel to see if the barrel tabs were slotted as they should be? Mine is a 40 cal in cherry shoots great but it is not something anyone would buy from me if I pointed out all the flaws.

Kilo Charlie said:

I haven't laid hands on a Kibler, but I did receive a TVM Southern rifle in December. I have zero complaints about the rifle, and fell the price was fair.

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I paid 2400 for mine I thought at the time it was fair plus I had the money. You could have a good one but they shortcut everything. They cut the butt on all the rifles they make and use a filler to hold it! I asked them straight up and they said yes. Even I can inlet a buttplate. Then when the wood finally dries is when the fun begins. For a master it should be at most a couple of hours me it probably took a day. But there wood supporting my buttplate not stained bondo or other. The most annoying thing is that inscription on the barrel why did it have to be so deep. On the Virginia I bought it was able to be filed out but on my SMR it almost to the rifling LOL! I have several guys that engraved their names on the rifles but not any where as deep.

Kibler if just for his superior lock only. Then add historically accurate architecture, top quality all American made parts, and ease of assembly and superior wood. With proper care and minimum skill you will have something worth more than the cost of purchase.
Also, consider resale value. After years of flintlock experience I’ve seem much misery and disappointment caused by a poor lock. In my opinion, Jim Kibler’s locks are simply the best in design, proper metal treatment and function.
Snoot

hanshi said:

I don't have a Kibler

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I thought everybody had a Kibler. It should be a requirement for those that cannot afford a really fine handmade rifle built by a master, that way they have some real perspective on what quality should be.

Yeah, I agree. But the truth is I'd have a hard time coming up with just a few dollars. The desire is there but the means is missing

Understood! You know what a good rifle is already though.

I can not say anything about a TVM gun since I never owned or shot one. I can say something about Kibler guns. I own 4, one Colonial, 2 SMR's, and a Woodsrunner. Jim stands behind his products. My Woodsrunner was one of the first 5 out of his shop, in fact it had the number 1 hand engraved on the bottom barrel flat. That barrel shot extremely accurate, but at 25 yards shot 6" to the left when the sights were centered on the top flat. At 50 yards it shot 11.5" to the left. It had very tight groups, but the sights had to be at the opposite edges of the flat to bring the group near the bull at each distance. Jim, once he saw my delima, sent me a new barrel and told me to keep the old one and do what ever I wanted with it. That is a man who stands behind his product. By the way the new barrel shoots spot on at 50 yards with the sights centered on the top barrel flat.

Mr. Kibler fully backs his products, TVM does not. That fact alone is reason enough to choose Kibler.

Mike in FL said:

I mean although I wouldn't even try to fit parts into wood, I'm pretty sure I can finish the end the white Woodsrunner. Thanks again.

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Mike,

I am in the same state you are, not that handy. Now I have nailed together a few kits in my time but they were $350.00 CVA and Traditions stuff. They shoot great and dont have to be perfect. I wanna warn you about Kiblers in the white. I did it. It arrived soo dang perfect I have yet to even start the finishing process. I cannot screw this one up. I even sought out a guy or two on the forum and all were too busy. I will do it but gonna wait till my ,mind tells me I'M READY.

Get the in the white for sure. YOU WILL BE PLEASED. BTW you can now get some pretty cool carving if thats yer thing.

I will add I have never shouldered any rifle, muzzleloader or modern, that feels so perfect and well balanced. Get a Kibler

I have not owned a Kibler. they appear to be well made and fully functional guns. They are attractive and appear to be precisely made. By all reports, they are easy to assemble and finish. I applaud Jim for an innovative and attaractive product. I would like to own one.

However, they are "cookie cutter" guns. No differentiation in length of pull, cast on/off, drop at comb or heel, no options for barrel length. No left handed options. With a TVM, I can have it made to fit my (unusual) fit issues and preferences. I can select barrel styles, lengths, weights, locks, wood quality, and other details. My experience with TVM is that if I can describe it, they can make it. With a lot of communication and some patience., I have always gotten what I wanted EXACTLY. And they all shoot the lights out. That is what a custom builder should supply.

If and when Kibler offers options of fit, I will try one. I wish them great success. But don't sell TVM short. They offer a different product.

ADK Bigfoot