For anyone considering an Indian manufactured Flintlock

maillemaker · Sep 8, 2022

sturmkatze said:
That's an opinion -- which you keep repeating over and over. No matter how many times you say horse feces taste good, most of us will say they don't and won't try them. You're welcome to your feces though.

It's not an opinion, it's a fact. This is nothing like taste. This is simply stating that if someone manufactures something as a decoration, and it in any way has a problem because someone after-the-fact made it into a gun, the manufacturer bears no responsibility for what happens. This is not an opinion. This is a fact.

I don't know why you would think or expect the manufacturer to bear any responsibility for the object being used as a firearm. I don't know how you think this is an opinion.

French Colonial · Sep 8, 2022

maillemaker said:
It's not an opinion, it's a fact. This is nothing like taste. This is simply stating that if someone manufactures something as a decoration, and it in any way has a problem because someone after-the-fact made it into a gun, the manufacturer bears no responsibility for what happens. This is not an opinion. This is a fact.

I don't know why you would think or expect the manufacturer to bear any responsibility for the object being used as a firearm. I don't know how you think this is an opinion.

BUT! you know, I know and everyone else knows they are manufacturing them to be shot, they are just not drilling out the vent to circumnavigate laws.

Whether they stand behind them or not is another matter.

NorthFork · Sep 8, 2022

FlinterNick said:
Indian Laws dont allow for it and it would increase the cost of the musket, the desire is to sell cheap muskets to compete with Pedersoli or the like.

I've been agreeing with you up to this point. "Compete with Pedersoli"???? A Ped costs twice as much as any similar model Indian musket. And has been proofed and is approved for sale as a firearm. And is generally better built, more reliable, more durable, and closer to an original than the Indian model. The only thing the Indian models have going for them is a cheap price.

NorthFork · Sep 8, 2022

Rock Home Isle said:
Anecdotal stories…no factual evidence…so again nothing…the internet can be so frustrating.

Why the intense hate against a fairly decent product? I’ll be the first to admit that India made guns are a work in progress. And there are only a couple of importers that have mostly solved the quality issues. These guns usually need some attention after purchase.

I’ve seen these products come a long ways from where they were 20 years ago, yeah pretty bad…but I would consider myself to be ignorant, uninformed, and biased, to make such a statement today.

I don’t understand these guys, with their hate, that spout doom & gloom, make these horrible claims about how bad these India made products clearly are…and then resort to personal insults, and unfounded statements when asked for verification and evidence.

Could it be that a lot of the low quality products are being funneled into Aussie Land?
Could it be Emotional Damage….??

The cause of the intensity of emotions, concerning these inanimate objects eludes me….

I have no hate for any Indian person or the country at large. Just like the Chinese, the Indians are fully capable of building world class 'stuff'. I'm sure if someone started a company to sell muzzleloaders and had them built in India, demanded quality and PAYED for it, the Indians would produce fine muzzleloaders. The importers want cheap and that's what the consumers get. Cheap manure.

NorthFork · Sep 8, 2022

Brokentaileddog said:
I've been looking to buy a 62/20for a while in either a English trade or a Fusil de Chasse on this forum for a minute with nothing I can really afford ..Loyalist Arms even though they are quite backed up has either with shipping for 790.00 yea it might be a while getting it but it's out there .. I'll gladly take a notion take any members 62/20 un indian smooth bore at or around that price...just saying..

Save a few more pennies and buy a Pedersoli Indian Trade Musket. For clarification due to this thread, NOT made in India, but made in Italy! I own one and it's close enough to being HC/PC for me. Most importantly it's dead on reliable and accurate.

NorthFork · Sep 8, 2022

Snake Pleskin said:
To avoid the many laws in India and elsewhere. No vent, not considered a firearm.

I'm sure if enough money greased the right hands, functional PROPER firearms could be legally produced in India for export.

tenngun · Sep 8, 2022

NorthFork said:
I've been agreeing with you up to this point. "Compete with Pedersoli"???? A Ped costs twice as much as any similar model Indian musket. And has been proofed and is approved for sale as a firearm. And is generally better built, more reliable, more durable, and closer to an original than the Indian model. The only thing the Indian models have going for them is a cheap price.

So when was the last time you saw proofs on a American made ml barrel?
I’ve build guns for over forty years, not a bunch but I’ve been shooting ml for years and to the best of my knowledge I’ve never had a proofed barrel, and certainly never proofed one.

tenngun · Sep 8, 2022

NorthFork said:
I'm sure if enough money greased the right hands, functional PROPER firearms could be legally produced in India for export.

There are, they just come sans touch hole

NorthFork · Sep 8, 2022

FlinterNick said:
Dave is 100% correct. Pedersoli and Indian made arms wouldn’t pass inspection, not sure about custom guns. Pedersoli because of the barrels probably the stock, and Indian Guns because of everything.

But a Pedersoli ain't likely to blow up if sane loading procedures are adhered to. And was proofed and is intended to be used as a firearm.

NorthFork · Sep 8, 2022

tenngun said:
So when was the last time you saw proofs on a American made ml barrel?
I’ve build guns for over forty years, not a bunch but I’ve been shooting ml for years and to the best of my knowledge I’ve never had a proofed barrel, and certainly never proofed one.

I have not seen proof marks on any American barrel as to the best of my knowledge there are no American proof houses like in Europe. It's a matter of trust. Be honest, would you expect a T/C, Colerain, or Rice barrel to go 'boom'? No you don't if you're honest. Do you trust the typical Indian made musket?

NorthFork · Sep 8, 2022

tenngun said:
There are, they just come sans touch hole

I disagree respectfully. If they were meant to be used as firearms, they would have a drilled touch hole. Laws not withstanding, if an importer or 'middleman' came with cash in hand, the Indian Govt would bend laws to allow the export of proper firearms. The companies who source these guns from India want cheap and that's what they get and it's the only way to do it.

I've said it before and it bears repeating, if someone started a company and said I want functional and safe to fire muzzleloaders built to high standards exportable from India........it would happen IF they were willing to PAY for it. Of course here in the US the muskets would be expensive, but I'm sure they would be fine weapons.

tenngun · Sep 8, 2022

NorthFork said:
But a Pedersoli ain't likely to blow up if sane loading procedures are adhered to. And was proofed and is intended to be used as a firearm.

Where are all these correctly loaded and cared for Indian guns failing?
I’ve heard of failures but all could be laid at user error
Do you know of any others?
Or are these the ‘knew a guy who had a friend who knew a fellow who was at an event and thought he knew of a guy whose Indian gun blew up’
Old Irish song

and even if you saw it your self
You wouldn’t believe it
And I wouldn’t trust a fellow
Like me if I was you
Sure I wasn’t there
I’m sure I have an alibi
I heard it from a man
Who knows a fellow
Who swears it’s all true’

springfield art · Sep 8, 2022

dave_person said:
Hi,
Here are examples of the condition of guns I get from reenactors. In this case it is a couple of Pedersolis but the condition is the same no matter the brand. The owners never removed their barrels for cleaning.

Here is a bore shot showing the pitting and gunk left in the barrel

Here is a lock and another showing the poor inletting

Even Pedersoli can make a lock a piece of junk

Now here is an India-made gun and some lock parts.

All these repros have quality issues and historical accuracy issues but add to that they often are neglected by the owners. I believe the barrel issue concerning India-made guns is a red herring. Many of those guns have some serious issues but it is not the barrels. Rudyard is right. The workers are skilled hand workers but the working conditions and materials are very primitive and they are exploited by the owners, marketers, and drive to offer the guns at low prices. What kills me is at almost $1600, a Pedersoli Bess may not function very well as bought. That is a lot of money to spend and then have to work over the gun extensively. The India guns are cheaper but even $600 to me is a lot to pay for something that may require a lot of remedial work to function reliably and safely. However, having written that, I fully realize that nothing is going to change because our consumer influence is small in a small market and of course buying a really goo reproduction from a gun maker who actually knows what he is about is expensive. So, folks will be attracted to these commercial guns because they have few other choices but what they can control is how they take care of their guns. The report highlighted in this thread strongly suggested the accident was caused by some obstruction in the barrel and that may be the result of poor maintenance.

dave

I re-enacted 10 years Rev War during the Bi-Cen. I saw the same thing, and think that actual vets like myself kept their muskets cleaner, but that's just my humble opinion. Plus I was something of a gun geek before going into enacting.

sussexmuzllodr said:
!00% Correct. But I think the sticking point is modern day quality control and proofing which the Indian Guns lack. I think its a valid concern by some. Thus some dislike by some in regards to Indian made Guns. Why take chances when there is better choices?

I believe Veteran Arms or one of the others would live-fire proof your musket purchase for a tidy sum, but that practice may have fallen by the wayside.

NorthFork · Sep 8, 2022

FlinterNick said:
Disagree on the steel being of equal quality, if it were it would be more expensive. I suspect that much of the steel used in Indian is domestic recycled steels which loses carbon. Indian is a known industrial recycler or scrap machinery and ships.

I wouldn’t say every bit as good. I’ve worked on several indian locks, I’m not a metallurgist but they’re locks are often in very poor shape, the metals are very soft too.

And BAM there it is! In a previous life and state (Cleveland Ohio) I was employed by not one but two heat treat facilities. I am NOT a metallurgist. That title requires a degree. But I did work the floor AND as quality control. Just because a vendor claims the steel is 8620 (or whatever) does not mean that it is. Period. When you or any company buys raw materials sourced from China, India, or any other number of 2nd and 3rd world countries, the steel in question may not be what it is advertised.

When we did heat treatment for the US DOD, the paper trail was impressive. Every i dotted, every t crossed. The material had to be in spec and the heat treatment had VERY tight tolerances. Aerospace was similar. No BS allowed or tolerated. Common nut/bolts/parts.......well no one cared.....at all. This was in the early 90's to early 2000's. I bet it's worse now. Unless health/life/safety is involved no one CARES about material spec in the least. And this is in the USA. Now imagine INDIA.

I'll say it again, If you PAYED and DEMANDED say 1137 steel barrels with a wall thickness of XX, with a Brinell hardness of XX and touch holes drilled, and XXX number of engaged threads on the breechplug, etc, etc, etc. India would gladly deliver. They are being payed to build cheap junk and that's what's delievered.

NorthFork · Sep 8, 2022

maillemaker said:
When it leaves the manufacturer, it will not function as a firearm.

Yes. If anyone manufactures an object, at any price, and it is not sent out the door as a functional firearm, then it was not manufactured to be a firearm, and as such you can't hold the manufacturer liable for any problems that might happen as the result of someone trying to use it as a firearm.

It doesn't matter what the reasoning was behind the manufacturer making this choice.

I agree. To me the quality is totally irrelevant. The issue is, will the manufacturer stand behind the product or not.

AMEN! This right here!

maillemaker · Sep 8, 2022

French Colonial said:
BUT! you know, I know and everyone else knows they are manufacturing them to be shot, they are just not drilling out the vent to circumnavigate laws.

Whether they stand behind them or not is another matter.

Yes, we all understand the game that is being played, but no, they are not manufacturing them to be shot. If they were manufacturing them to be shot, they would be functional firearms. As manufactured, they are non-functional replicas. And that is likely all they will stand behind them as and all the law will see they sold.

Rudyard · Sep 8, 2022

Rock Home Isle said:
@Banjoman your gun looks well loved. I swear, every time you post images of this gun, I fall for it again & again.

View attachment 160641
Here’s my 11gauge India made smoothbore. It was very inexpensive. I bought it to use as a loaner. But it’s just too nice…so still loooking for that loaner smoothbore. I’ve taken geese, with heavy goose loads…very responsive firearm.

When I got the gun, I had to replace the tang bolt…found a replacement at Ace Hardware. And I had to replace the nipple…got 3 of them from Track of the Wolf…shot the gun pretty heavily for about 2 years, with no problems. Been looking for a second one…but have never come across another of these.

And of coarse it’s been on several dove hunts, quail & pheasant hunts. I haven’t shot it in the last 10 years, as I’m pretty much a flinter these days…but still a very nice gune.

The shotgun looks very' local trade'. MLs where made for the local India trade as the ML was easier to get a license & more versatile in loadings than the locally made Breach loaders so Indian gun shops offered all sorts of MLs including the copies of the' Mutiny Enfields '. The smooth bore version of the 1853 Enfield' series . If so they would bear the Indian Proof house mark it looks like three Lions back to back .Some did get exported but I don't think there was any Reenactment need just village India which had never seemed to change much .by the 70s.I took out a double flint with side plug conversion to cap with the idea of having such guns flint or cap option But the Authority's wouldn't let me take it up to Cawnpore so impounded it in Bombay & I collected it later going out an opportunity lost to India. As the Makers put it "We have the red tape system" Just a mention .
Regards Rudyard
Rudyard

French Colonial · Sep 8, 2022

maillemaker said:
Yes, we all understand the game that is being played, but no, they are not manufacturing them to be shot. If they were manufacturing them to be shot, they would be functional firearms. As manufactured, they are non-functional replicas. And that is likely all they will stand behind them as and all the law will see they sold.

You just contradicted yourself,

You understand they are but they are not.

Time for me to bow out of this ridiculous argument that serves no purpose.

NorthFork · Sep 8, 2022

tenngun said:
Where are all these correctly loaded and cared for Indian guns failing?
I’ve heard of failures but all could be laid at user error
Do you know of any others?
Or are these the ‘knew a guy who had a friend who knew a fellow who was at an event and thought he knew of a guy whose Indian gun blew up’
Old Irish song
and even if you saw it your self
You wouldn’t believe it
And I wouldn’t trust a fellow
Like me if I was you
Sure I wasn’t there
I’m sure I have an alibi
I heard it from a man
Who knows a fellow
Who swears it’s all true’

As a piece shot with blanks for re-enacting.... well there's been a few over the recent years that have gone 'boom' and have gotten publicity.. But most will likely be just fine through out their miserable lives. MISERABLE as I agree with several posters here that re-enactors 'abuse' their guns. Don't clean properly, don't take care of, etc. I've seen it. Most (but not all!!) re-enactors guns look like heck.

Now comes the part that I care about. Live fire. A hunting velocity powder load pushing either a hunting type shot load or single ball. I DON'T TRUST the common INDIAN made gun to safely do this time after time, year after year. And that's with a reasonable level of cleaning and maintenance.

Proper hunting loads generate considerable pressure compared to blank loads. 150 grains as a blank load was discussed earlier in this thread. I would expect ANY Indian gun to be able to handle 150 grains of ffg or fffg and a paper wadding. Should we get Lyman to pressure test this? Now compare that to 80 to 120 grains ffg or fffg and 1 ounce to 2 ounce of shot plus wadding or 80 to 120 grains ffg or fffg and the typical ball/patch or wad of 50 to 75 cal.

Trot · Sep 8, 2022

tenngun said:
Where are all these correctly loaded and cared for Indian guns failing?
I’ve heard of failures but all could be laid at user error
Do you know of any others?
Or are these the ‘knew a guy who had a friend who knew a fellow who was at an event and thought he knew of a guy whose Indian gun blew up’
Old Irish song
and even if you saw it your self
You wouldn’t believe it
And I wouldn’t trust a fellow
Like me if I was you
Sure I wasn’t there
I’m sure I have an alibi
I heard it from a man
Who knows a fellow
Who swears it’s all true’

I did a lot of research when I was planning on getting my first smoothbore. There were at least five documented cases of barrel failures that I had record of. At least two of them were not user error, I haven't heard of any in several years though. One was a repro 1853 Enfield that failed on the first shot out of it, another was a pistol that an experienced muzzleloader had for about a year, shot it and cared for it. It developed a crack from the rear of the barrel where the breechplug screwed in. Maybe there were issues early on and the failures made them step up their game a bit? Who knows. I wouldn't mind getting one of the Indian matchlocks, no lock to worry about!

For anyone considering an Indian manufactured Flintlock

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