Indian Muskets

Grenadier1758 · Sep 3, 2019

The military smoothbores were centered around the effectiveness in ranks. While these military smoothbores can function as a smoothbore, the military guns, British Land Pattern Muskets and the French Charleville Fusil de Marine, are too heavy to be really effective as a fowler. Yes, I know we can horse them around and pretend they are a fowler.

FlinterNick · Sep 3, 2019

Grenadier1758 said:
The military smoothbores were centered around the effectiveness in ranks. While these military smoothbores can function as a smoothbore, the military guns, British Land Pattern Muskets and the French Charleville Fusil de Marine, are too heavy to be really effective as a fowler. Yes, I know we can horse them around and pretend they are a fowler.

I think it depends mostly on personal preference. I enjoy using my Long Land Bess and my 1763 Charleville for small game. Both are heavyweights at nearly 11.25 lbs and a 45 & 46 inch .69 barrel, and .78, but I handle them well because of the weight. For larger game I use rifles, preferably something lighter at 8 1/2 - 9 1/2 lbs, .50 or .54.

My lightest military arm is an older Miruko Charleville Musket by Navy Arms, its around 8.8 lbs and I’ve used it for larger game.

Dphar1950 · Sep 4, 2019

TheTyler7011 said:
Recently just read a forum post here and tons of people are trashing on Indian guns.

Personally, l don’t understand lt. Their ls no way muskets that were hand made 250 years ago are “better” or higher quality than Indian reproductions today. l got a Brown Bess from VeteranArms and lt ls awesome. Does everything l need lt to do. For anyone out their contemplating lt, don’t spend over a thousand dollars on a reproduction musket. You don’t need lt. l can not say anything about Indian manufactures other than VeteranArms because they’re the only ones lve used. But VA muskets are great.

My rant has ended.

You really need to do more research. And understand that the reason many of these pieces of manure are not vented is that if vented they would have to be proved in a gov't proof house and they don't want the potential failures or the cost. They are made the sell cheap as wall hangers to people who foolishly think that poorly assembled firearms made of questionable materials are as good as a firearm made of proper materials and proved in a gov't proof house as is the case with the Italian made arms.
Then understand that the US rifle muskets of the Civil War had iron barrels, not steel. Simply because some steel alloys are not suitable for barrels and steel making of the time was very crude by modern standards. Soem steels to this day are prone to failure when subjected to INTERNAL PRESSURE. That a good quality iron barrel properly skelp welded is safer as a BP arm than some steel alloy barrels made today. There is a reason the British had such a stringent proof laws. The proof loads were "robust" compared to some countries even to this day. Cheap firearms are never really a bargain. Even today's modern brass suppository guns show this when used extensively. Springs go flat and there are other "issues" that are virtually unknown in arms costing a 2 times as much. Quality and reliability costs extra. Dealers tell me they have 3-4 times the return rate for repair that the more expensive arms of the same caliber and basic design...

Rockvillerich · Sep 4, 2019

FlinterNick said:
Smoothbore Advantages in 18th century were pretty much centered around the effectiveness of fire in ranks. Otherwise today a smoothbore is just as effective as a smoothbore shotgun

Yep, smoothbore muskets can be loaded a lot faster out of a cartridge box using paper cartridges compared to a rifle, and they still have reasonable accuracy, better than I would have expected. Almost always an advantage for military use.
My original comment was in regard to smoothbore reproductions of rifled arms, which I've got no beef with for use in reenactments, or film.

Dphar1950 · Sep 4, 2019

tenngun said:
Brandon F does you tube vids on eighteenth century British Army. His work is impressive, and very entertaining. He did one on poor care that some military reenactores give some of their guns.
Reading about old military muskets The US army talked about some God-awful charges tested in old barrels and the barrel stood it. Dixie gunworks and Sam Falada both tested guns with very ridiculous charges. And guns held as long as the barrel did not have an obstruction in it. We read of trade fusils that burst in use, but they were prodded in Englis testing houses before sent to America. I don’t doubt failure was secondary to poor care.
I don’t doubt that the failures attributed to India made guns are caused by misuse and poor care.
If you take a Rice or green mountain barrel, shoot it leave it to rust, misload it, it will fail.

So what do you attribute the Douglas ML barrel failures of the 1960s-70s? It was not always improper loading. Some I know split of burst with normal loads and others withstood "stupid". Do you ever wonder why the military is so strict with their barrel contractors? If an inspector come to the plant and finds a bar of steel that is not in "spec" in the plant anywhere the entire contract is cancelled and no payments made. The gov't spec for small arms is a 4150 variant.
With BP loaded MLs almost any GOOD iron barrel will stand all the pressure the propellant will make. This is why all the US Civil War Rifle Musket barrels were made of "best iron" and skelp welded and then rolled to contour. The steel of the time, while technically stronger was far more prone to failure when used for gun barrels. These musket barrels when finished were proved with 200 gr of musket powder and a 55 gr Minie spaced 2" off the powder.
There are cheap mill run modern steels being used for ML barrels in the US that are more dangerous to the shooter than the Iron barrels of the past. Barrels still fail but the makers of barrels made with steels the steel makers state are unsuitable (documented in a letter from LaSalle Steel to the old "Buckskin RePort" magazine) get away with the handloader defense. I.E. the shooter screwed up. Its not the base steel that is a concern. Its the manufacturing process and the lubricating metals added to make them "free machining" that is the issue. These are mill run steels with additions of lead, sulfur and often phosphorus to make then cut cleaner. But these additions tend to form flaws in the steel and these flaws coupled with cold rolling, which makes the steel more brittle nut eases chip formation and makes them cut easier in a mill or lathe. But its made "mill run" with not actual inspection of the bars made for flaws. Better grades are made with a clean furnace and are inspected and are usually sold as a full furnace melt lot. Some smaller barrel makers will pool resources to afford to have 100 tons or more of steel made. Green Mountain ML barrels are made of hot rolled GB quality 1137. This steel while not ideal is very strong and will stand pressures of 50K PSI in 1" octagonal 45-70 chambering with not issues. But like all 113x-114x steels its subject to work hardening in thin barrels but ML pressures are low enough and the walls heavy enough this is not and issue. And unlike cold rolled steel its not going to fragment or break only bulge. Kinda like an iron barrel would.

Rockvillerich · Sep 4, 2019

Dphar1950 said:
You really need to do more research. And understand that the reason many of these pieces of manure are not vented is that if vented they would have to be proved in a gov't proof house and they don't want the potential failures or the cost. They are made the sell cheap as wall hangers to people who foolishly think that poorly assembled firearms made of questionable materials are as good as a firearm made of proper materials and proved in a gov't proof house as is the case with the Italian made arms.
Then understand that the US rifle muskets of the Civil War had iron barrels, not steel. Simply because some steel alloys are not suitable for barrels and steel making of the time was very crude by modern standards. Soem steels to this day are prone to failure when subjected to INTERNAL PRESSURE. That a good quality iron barrel properly skelp welded is safer as a BP arm than some steel alloy barrels made today. There is a reason the British had such a stringent proof laws. The proof loads were "robust" compared to some countries even to this day. Cheap firearms are never really a bargain. Even today's modern brass suppository guns show this when used extensively. Springs go flat and there are other "issues" that are virtually unknown in arms costing a 2 times as much. Quality and reliability costs extra. Dealers tell me they have 3-4 times the return rate for repair that the more expensive arms of the same caliber and basic design...

Tyler has a point, because the worst of these over-sized modern steel barrels are probably a lot stronger than all but the very best original wrapped iron tubes, and not at all likely to burst if loaded properly. Poorly threaded, or pinned breach plugs are a concern, but otherwise the Indian guns do have their place for those on a budget. That said, I would recommend checking breach plugs prior to shooting one.

Dphar1950 · Sep 4, 2019

Rockvillerich said:
Tyler has a point, because the worst of these over-sized modern steel barrels are probably a lot stronger than all but the very best original wrapped iron tubes, and not at all likely to burst if loaded properly. Poorly threaded, or pinned breach plugs are a concern, but otherwise the Indian guns do have their place for those on a budget. That said, I would recommend checking breach plugs prior to shooting one.

You need to do more research as well.
But its scary to a lot of people.
I consider these little different than pipe bombs. There is a good chance they are made from tubing.
Most American made ML barrels that run around 200 bucks (cheap in the quality barrel world) are improperly breeched and about 80-90% need to be refit or sent back. Yeah i build MLs and belong to a gunmakes guild. Its amazing. But properly fitting a plug is very time consuming on average. I don't build guns with leaded screw stock barrels and none of then come breeched.
This is a plug from a big name ML barrel makers barrel The rebate actually ran up into the bore and formed a wonderful fouling trap.
I replaced the barrel with a GM before the customer got it back. I did not want to be in the liability chain by having it in my shop. Had this been shot with Pyrodex it would have looked far different.

Dan

Griz44Mag · Sep 4, 2019

"You need to do more research as well.
But its scary to a lot of people.
I consider these little different than pipe bombs. There is a good chance they are made from tubing.
Most American made ML barrels that run around 200 bucks (cheap in the quality barrel world) are improperly breeched and about 80-90% need to be refit or sent back. "

I just love these self proclaimed chest beater experts. They can be quite entertaining.

Yes, I have an Indian made Bess.
Yes, I have put hundreds of tightly patched .735 round balls down it.
Yes, it shoots reliably, as accurate as a smoothie can be, is a heck of a lot of fun, and .........
HAS NOT BLOWN UP! Imagine that!!!

Stantheman86 · Sep 4, 2019

I personally didn't buy the Indian made Enfield to save money , I bought it because I like weird firearms

I am of course highly interested in how they are made because I had been thinking of getting one of the 1839 Tower muskets.

That said , there's plenty of people shooting sketchy "unmentionables " made in Brazil , etc and I've seen many debates similar to this on those forums.

I've personally had a big name , expensive American made "unmentionable " suffer a complete metallurgical failure that occurred due to manufacturing error.

Many people shooting muzzleloaders made in Spain with questionable quality , or shooting original contract production 1863 Springfields made at one of the manufacturers in which most were rejected as "2nd Quality Arms" and were unfit for conversion to breechloader.

I think it all comes down to , you buy the piece, inspect it, shoot it, and if it meets your personal standard then go with it.

tenngun · Sep 4, 2019

Dphar1950 said:
So what do you attribute the Douglas ML barrel failures of the 1960s-70s? It was not always improper loading. Some I know split of burst with normal loads and others withstood "stupid". Do you ever wonder why the military is so strict with their barrel contractors? If an inspector come to the plant and finds a bar of steel that is not in "spec" in the plant anywhere the entire contract is cancelled and no payments made. The gov't spec for small arms is a 4150 variant.
With BP loaded MLs almost any GOOD iron barrel will stand all the pressure the propellant will make. This is why all the US Civil War Rifle Musket barrels were made of "best iron" and skelp welded and then rolled to contour. The steel of the time, while technically stronger was far more prone to failure when used for gun barrels. These musket barrels when finished were proved with 200 gr of musket powder and a 55 gr Minie spaced 2" off the powder.
There are cheap mill run modern steels being used for ML barrels in the US that are more dangerous to the shooter than the Iron barrels of the past. Barrels still fail but the makers of barrels made with steels the steel makers state are unsuitable (documented in a letter from LaSalle Steel to the old "Buckskin RePort" magazine) get away with the handloader defense. I.E. the shooter screwed up. Its not the base steel that is a concern. Its the manufacturing process and the lubricating metals added to make them "free machining" that is the issue. These are mill run steels with additions of lead, sulfur and often phosphorus to make then cut cleaner. But these additions tend to form flaws in the steel and these flaws coupled with cold rolling, which makes the steel more brittle nut eases chip formation and makes them cut easier in a mill or lathe. But its made "mill run" with not actual inspection of the bars made for flaws. Better grades are made with a clean furnace and are inspected and are usually sold as a full furnace melt lot. Some smaller barrel makers will pool resources to afford to have 100 tons or more of steel made. Green Mountain ML barrels are made of hot rolled GB quality 1137. This steel while not ideal is very strong and will stand pressures of 50K PSI in 1" octagonal 45-70 chambering with not issues. But like all 113x-114x steels its subject to work hardening in thin barrels but ML pressures are low enough and the walls heavy enough this is not and issue. And unlike cold rolled steel its not going to fragment or break only bulge. Kinda like an iron barrel would.

Your points are all valid and one has to be careful. Be cause Joe survived his ‘hold my beer’ moment doesn’t mean you would.
I don’t own an Indian gun so I don’t have a dog in the fight, but I, personally, would have no problems with owning a loyalist arms import.
I wasn’t born in Missouri but live there now, please show me the Indian gun, sold as a shooter( like loyalist or middelsex village arms) that was properly cared for and properly loaded that blew.
How does loyalist stay in business???
I took a piece of ‘C’ PVC, capped it and then wrapped it in duct tape about half an inch thick a foot long. Set it in a bed of stone loaded from 20 to 50 grains of powder and one wadded ball. And shot it a bit a dozen times one 4th of July till it got to pitted to load
The Spanish made some light field canon used in Mexico of light iron tubes wrapped in rawhide.
Don’t over charge it, make sure the ball is down, make sure it’s clean and oiled when done, don’t clean tomorrow or next week. If I owned one and treated it that way I would have no fears. I think I would die in a car accident on the way to the range or an event long before my gun failed.

FlinterNick · Sep 4, 2019

Seriously come on people; Indian made muskets are junky; made of poor quality materials ... you get what ya pay for.

I owned an Indian made Bess; reworking it wasn’t worth it, sold it off as Unshootable because it was the right thing to do.

The barrel wasn’t tapered straight and the breech plug wasn’t threaded appropriately.

Dphar1950 · Sep 4, 2019

Griz44Mag said:
"You need to do more research as well.
But its scary to a lot of people.
I consider these little different than pipe bombs. There is a good chance they are made from tubing.
Most American made ML barrels that run around 200 bucks (cheap in the quality barrel world) are improperly breeched and about 80-90% need to be refit or sent back. "

I just love these self proclaimed chest beater experts. They can be quite entertaining.

Yes, I have an Indian made Bess.
Yes, I have put hundreds of tightly patched .735 round balls down it.
Yes, it shoots reliably, as accurate as a smoothie can be, is a heck of a lot of fun, and .........
HAS NOT BLOWN UP! Imagine that!!!

Dphar1950 · Sep 4, 2019

I have been a ML gunsmith since the late 1960s when I was just a kid. Worked to both American makers of Sharps rifles as a gunsmith and all around firearms "tech guy". I was working for the Buckskin Report as a writer when all the T/C hawkens were failing. Then there were the REALLY scary Japanese guns with 2 piece barrels made by Miroku (yeah the one that makes Winchester and Weatherby). The trick was that the bores in the two pieces did not align quite right. And the ones with the poorly threaded in drums don't recall who made these. But if you come across a gun with "Ultra-Hi" stamped on it or on the box, don't shoot it. One of the gunsmiths in Big Timber at the time had one in his shop the owner had bought the thing and it would not fire properly. He turned the "drum" (it was shaped like a mini patent breech "snail" of sorts) 1/4 turn and it FELL OUT. Douglas had some failures. The one I saw in 1969 was a 13/16" 45 that split from the breech face up the top flat to the rear sight. This was a CLASSIC brittle fracture with almost no bulging at all probably the result of a "lubricating metal" inclusion. Ductile still will bulge first. Brittle steels will not. AND steel reacts to internal pressure and shock differently than it does to other "stress". There were others. Pa Keelor (you are too young to know who he was I suspect) was a gunsmith and parts supplier (I used to get lock castings from him). He reported a failure in Muzzle Blasts and Douglas would not sell him barrels any more. Douglas in the mid/late 70s had started anealling the cold drawn barrels to make them more ductile (the hoped) but the scale on them would quicky dull a file if you tried to draw file them. Douglas barrels were leaded screw stock, 12L14 (the "L" stands for lead, its heavy on lead and sulfur and I think phosphous so it cuts clean) just as most "custom" ML barrels today are. One maker brags that his barrels never fail, same one that did the dandy breeching in the photos I posted above, but the truth is somewhat different. I have various articles printed in the old Buckskin Report. One by a metallugist and ML shooter/builder. But of course all the "real" experts react to his warnings just you have. So he seldom posts on barrel steel discussion. Nobody wants to here it. The think is that almost any modern steel should be impossible to even bulge with the pressure levels generated, especially in a smooth bore. So why do some barrels break and fragment when they at most should simply bulge (some leaded scew stock barrels will bulge, but the one I have the photo of may or may not be one the the annealed versions and Don died and I can no longer ask him. Shooter was using the wrong measure and stuck a ball and shot it out. Ringed the barrel very nicely. The modern world has had issues with improper steel use, payoffs and/or recalls result. But of course you know about all this since you are obviously an "expert". Maybe this will help. Its by the metallurgist I mentioned above.

Stantheman86 · Sep 4, 2019

FlinterNick said:
Seriously come on people; Indian made muskets are junky; made of poor quality materials ... you get what ya pay for.

I owned an Indian made Bess; reworking it wasn’t worth it, sold it off as Unshootable because it was the right thing to do.

The barrel wasn’t tapered straight and the breech plug wasn’t threaded appropriately.

They honestly aren't priced far enough below stuff like Armi Sport to make them worth it , but if people have gotten a good one that shoots good and is safe, it no doubt will do the job.

My "curiosity" with the Indian muskets has been satisfied , I got a decent one and it's a good addition to my "oddball" collection , along with my Indian "unmentionable " prison guard shotgun and some other stuff. I may try some shot cartridges in the Indian Enfield musket just for screwing around at the range, making it into a 28 gauge. Maybe bang around the woods behind my parents house during small game season with it.

Whenever I think I "need" one of those 1839 Tower muskets I talk myself out of it since I have Italian smoothbores that are nearly identical.

There's no doubt these do sell, as shown by the fact that several vendors remain in business. There's a guy on GunBroker selling Indian Enfields too.

For $500 for an Indian made example it just seems that the $750 to get the Armi Sport Enfield P53 is probably worth the extra $250 if you are going to use it heavily. Or just search online Sutlers who sell reenactor trade ins.

RAEDWALD · Sep 5, 2019

There is no such thing as 'gun barrel steel'. All steels, iron, bronze and indeed anything that make a tube can do the job. It all depends upon what the role is and how much you use plus the way it is formed and treated by the maker and user. Name a 'good' barrel steel and it will fail if there is too little of it or it is embrittled in treatment. Cast iron is a rubbish choice but it will work if you use enough, as large cast iron cannon prove. All of them will fail in the hands of idiots who abuse them too. Morris Minor steering columns are still giving good service as West African shotgun barrels after decades of use. Traditionally made rustic USA made wrought iron barrels come with a hammer welded seam down their length complete with slag inclusions and are venerated by enthusiasts.

It is not what you have but how you use it applies to both the maker and the user. Indian muskets do pass the world's most rigorous commercial gun proof tests. This possibly tells us of how much less black powder in a musket barrel stresses metal than a powerful modern cartridge does in a modern rifle barrel or magnum shot shells more than it extols the Indian choice of steel but the latter is evidently up to the job.

FlinterNick · Sep 5, 2019

RAEDWALD said:
There is no such thing as 'gun barrel steel'. All steels, iron, bronze and indeed anything that make a tube can do the job. It all depends upon what the role is and how much you use plus the way it is formed and treated by the maker and user. Name a 'good' barrel steel and it will fail if there is too little of it or it is embrittled in treatment. Cast iron is a rubbish choice but it will work if you use enough, as large cast iron cannon prove. All of them will fail in the hands of idiots who abuse them too. Morris Minor steering columns are still giving good service as West African shotgun barrels after decades of use. Traditionally made rustic USA made wrought iron barrels come with a hammer welded seam down their length complete with slag inclusions and are venerated by enthusiasts.

It is not what you have but how you use it applies to both the maker and the user. Indian muskets do pass the world's most rigorous commercial gun proof tests. This possibly tells us of how much less black powder in a musket barrel stresses metal than a powerful modern cartridge does in a modern rifle barrel or magnum shot shells more than it extols the Indian choice of steel but the latter is evidently up to the job.

Also to add... gun care has a lot to do with how well your gun works. You could have a Getz barrel and it will Pitt and degrade due to neglect.

The Indian barrels I’ve worked on just haven’t shown me the integrity of quality; not to say they can’t be better or perfect; the steel quality is good but not great too.

My best smoothbore is a miruko charleville

Rockvillerich · Sep 5, 2019

Dphar1950 said:
You need to do more research as well.
But its scary to a lot of people.
I consider these little different than pipe bombs. There is a good chance they are made from tubing.
Most American made ML barrels that run around 200 bucks (cheap in the quality barrel world) are improperly breeched and about 80-90% need to be refit or sent back. Yeah i build MLs and belong to a gunmakes guild. Its amazing. But properly fitting a plug is very time consuming on average. I don't build guns with leaded screw stock barrels and none of then come breeched.
This is a plug from a big name ML barrel makers barrel The rebate actually ran up into the bore and formed a wonderful fouling trap.
I replaced the barrel with a GM before the customer got it back. I did not want to be in the liability chain by having it in my shop. Had this been shot with Pyrodex it would have looked far different.View attachment 14464 View attachment 14465
Dan

Looking for my copy of Jerry Cunningham's book on the destruction of muzzle loading rifle barrels, for the details on how many hundreds of grains of FF it took to blow off a breach plug that had been unscrewed and tested till only one thread remained...something like 400 if I remember correctly.

Rifleman1776 · Sep 5, 2019

Dphar1950 said:
I was working for the Buckskin Report as a writer when all the T/C hawkens were failing. Then there were the REALLY scary Japanese guns with 2 piece barrels made by Miroku (yeah the one that makes Winchester and Weatherby). The trick was that the bores in the two pieces did not align quite right.

Dphar, I remember those days. I wrote for BR also. And, my first rifle had one of those two piece barrels. Cannot say enough bad about them. Today, the India guns seem to vying for the 'worst ever' title.

springfield art · Sep 5, 2019

TheTyler7011 said:
Recently just read a forum post here and tons of people are trashing on Indian guns.

Personally, l don’t understand lt. Their ls no way muskets that were hand made 250 years ago are “better” or higher quality than Indian reproductions today. l got a Brown Bess from VeteranArms and lt ls awesome. Does everything l need lt to do. For anyone out their contemplating lt, don’t spend over a thousand dollars on a reproduction musket. You don’t need lt. l can not say anything about Indian manufactures other than VeteranArms because they’re the only ones lve used. But VA muskets are great.

My rant has ended.

I bought at least two muskets from VA. Early Springfield flint based on the Charleville; a German/Hessian type; the barrels all seemed fine to me, although I didn't live fire any, but would not hesitate to do so. The owner of VA was nicely responsive on the phone, and he pointed out that there are more than one factory making these muskets. Quality control is up to the mfgr. mgmt. and the importer, whose reputation rests upon them. I think I read the Indians use 1095 steel, which is pretty tough; (car springs, etc.) Best to all!

springfield art · Sep 5, 2019

Rifleman1776 said:
Dphar, I remember those days. I wrote for BR also. And, my first rifle had one of those two piece barrels. Cannot say enough bad about them. Today, the India guns seem to vying for the 'worst ever' title.

I had heard rumors that there was such a thing as 'two piece' barrels, but didn't believe it! Is that actually true? Good grief! People should, if possible, save up and spend extra for the Italian ones; they're easier to sell if you decide to switch out...

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