Proper range safety

smokin .50 said:

Curator... I won't shoot at a club where folks are handling firearms during a target change while I'm down range. I'd rather pack my sh!t up & LEAVE...
Dave

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Why!? You're "safe" with people behind you handling guns. While you're downrange they are only STEALING yours!

There are always two sides to every coin. And sometimes you can stand it on edge. Like the real reason to load BP "behind the line" is to get out from under the overhead where the ramrod won't fit.

I didn't know this was going to take a left turn and become about blackpowder-only shooting ranges, somehow, all of a sudden. They, and clubs, often have different rules including members-only and no non-blackpowder for example...

What silliness. Now can we just stipulate this thread is about smokeless-powder-only ranges and there are no more issues for us to address?

LOL

I m absolutely blessed that my firing line as well as my bench are on my own porch.

I would never be in a situation where anyone is fiddling with a piece while others are in front of him.

Learned a few good habits in the Army long ago.

Alden said:

smokin .50 said:

Curator... I won't shoot at a club where folks are handling firearms during a target change while I'm down range. I'd rather pack my sh!t up & LEAVE...
Dave

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Why!? You're "safe" with people behind you handling guns. While you're downrange they are only STEALING yours!

There are always two sides to every coin. And sometimes you can stand it on edge. Like the real reason to load BP "behind the line" is to get out from under the overhead where the ramrod won't fit.

I didn't know this was going to take a left turn and become about blackpowder-only shooting ranges, somehow, all of a sudden. They, and clubs, often have different rules including members-only and no non-blackpowder for example...

What silliness. Now can we just stipulate this thread is about smokeless-powder-only ranges and there are no more issues for us to address?

LOL

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Actually, NO we can't since this is a MUZZLELOADING FORUM! To assume that a Range Safety thread topic would be limited in scope to smokeless powder is not only foolish, but it could be misleading to Newbies getting into the Sport, thereby doing them a disservice.

Further NO ONE ever stipulated that the thread be about "Black Powder ONLY Ranges" OR Ranges that allow both smokeless & Black Powder. The topic of SAFETY isn't "silly", and in all of the YEARS I've been writing here NO ONE has ever condoned gun handling while others are forward of the Firing Line. In EVERY Range / Club I shoot at, handing during a target change gets you warned or THROWN OUT (with the exception of Woods Walks, as previously mentioned, where everybody goes MUZZLE-UP to change/repair a target).

I'm not looking to "spit hairs" here, I just know right from WRONG. The fact that other Clubs VIOLATE common Safety Rules is abhorrent to me! Darwin is alive & well and something will eventually HAPPEN, because you can only tempt fate for so long before fate bites you in the Arse!

If I have misconstrued any of what you wrote or its' meaning, please inform me and accept my apologies. Sometimes posts can be taken more than one way.

Dave

I can't believe it is even in question. That's a lot of trust to put in some knuckle head you don't even know! Swing a gun in my direction and I'll swing a punch in yours. Why even tempt fate? No man's life is worth a few moments of convenience.

I was being sarcastic about making this a smokeless powder thread...

But the argument is that on all-blackpowder ranges, arguably even predominantly blackpopwder or where two blackpowder shooters are near each other, it is safer to handle and load but not prime your gun behind the safety line (not the muzzle line) to avoid sparks catching some blackpowder in a can or even a gun.

I hope I didn't give anyone the wrong impression. At the range I shoot at, no one handles a weapon when people are down range, that would be a serious safety issue. I meant things like getting chewed on by other RSOs and other shooters who can't understand that a muzzleloader has to be pointed up in order to be loaded, even if the rules say to keep weapons pointed down range. That is just one goofy thing I have been told I was doing wrong. And y'all should have seen the looks on their faces when I told them that the law of gravity is still in effect, and since I am using a ML, there are a few minor adjustments that have to be made in order to shoot the thing. As always, and this applies regardless of if any of us are shooting a ML or a modern, safety first, cause I will not be injured at a range and will not allow anyone else to be either. When working as RSO, I give one warning, and then throw the unsafe shooter out if they do it again. When not an RSO, I tell the unsafe shooter what the problem is, and then let the RSO deal with it if one is available, or leave if one is not available.

Lonegun1894 said:

I hope I didn't give anyone the wrong impression. At the range I shoot at, no one handles a weapon when people are down range, that would be a serious safety issue. I meant things like getting chewed on by other RSOs and other shooters who can't understand that a muzzleloader has to be pointed up in order to be loaded, even if the rules say to keep weapons pointed down range. That is just one goofy thing I have been told I was doing wrong. And y'all should have seen the looks on their faces when I told them that the law of gravity is still in effect, and since I am using a ML, there are a few minor adjustments that have to be made in order to shoot the thing. As always, and this applies regardless of if any of us are shooting a ML or a modern, safety first, cause I will not be injured at a range and will not allow anyone else to be either. When working as RSO, I give one warning, and then throw the unsafe shooter out if they do it again. When not an RSO, I tell the unsafe shooter what the problem is, and then let the RSO deal with it if one is available, or leave if one is not available.

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Excellent post all the way around! When we look out for one another, the world is a better place!

Dave

This thread is very interesting, but I'm having trouble identifying with all of it. Certainly, when I was in the military, somebody ran the show, although I don't remember them called a "range safety officer."

I am a member of a club that has six or seven separate ranges, all at one site, up against a high cliff. Some ranges are only for shotgun, archery, etc. But others are open for pistol and rifle (and, of course, black powder). During the times that I go, there are usually only 3 or 4 people at one time on the whole, multi-acre site. Range safety officer? Never seen or heard of one.

If my club were, for some reason, unavailable, I would probably buy some timber, and set up my own range.

I don't think I would much enjoy shooting under the supervision of a range safety officer.

"follow his unsafe advice" Actually his advise is far safer than going back and forth with a loaded firearm (unprimed or uncapped is still loaded). The issue is that most black powder ranges/matches permit it and I personally have no issue with it. Most are used to loading behind the line however unless the range is geared strictly to muzzleloading shooting you will run into problems. Range rules are to protect the shooters, the spectators, the club/organization and the owners. Rules are put in place to satisfy the insurance companies and assure local officials that the facility is being run safely. Most of the ranges are structured for cartridge shooters which are the majority and range officers have a job to do. It isn't necessarily ignorance on their part, they have to follow the script. If a RO permits a BP shooter to leave the line and then return with a loaded firearm do you know what kind of hassle and arguments he will get from other shooters who feel they should be allowed to do the same? There is a huge range (1000 yards, rifle pistol, shotgun) just over 10 miles from here. Among their many rules you must have the action open, flag in the chamber. No more than one gun uncased at a time, back in the case when you finish and before you leave the line. Respect the RO, follow his directions or find somewhere else to shoot. Least you think I am aligned against you let me say that I am not. For the most part muzzleloading shooters are the safest people I have been around and I have always felt safe in their presence. We will be seeing the rules becoming even more stringent in the future with Lawyers willing to take on suits and developers trying to close ranges down. They don't just own the ball, they own the whole park and we will play by their rules or not at all.

I'm sorry for rambling on and I realize this post is a little (a lot?) controversial but in a lot of areas in our country the future isn't very pretty for shooters and this is what it may come to. Let the flack begin!

No flack here. In this day and age there is a lot of Hoplophobia out there. http://www.ammoland.com/2013/04/is...-most-dangerous-of-all-phobias/#axzz2vDaVzNXg

Hawkeye,

My understanding is that, with muzzleloaders, there is a GOOD REASON they are loaded behind the line. It is not merely tolerated, but every muzzleloader shoot I've been to (except a sihlouette shoot) INSISTED that the loading be done behind the line.

I was just a bit annoyed that the range officer treated me like I was stupid for not knowing the rules. I tried to politely explain to him that things are different with a muzzle loader and he seemed to only get more peeved.

There may be a "good reason" they are loaded behind the line but what is it? I'm asking because I honestly can't think of one that would be any safer than loading on the line. :idunno: I'm not saying that I oppose loading at a bench and advancing to the line while keeping control of the piece with the muzzle pointing in a safe direction.

hawkeye2 said:

There may be a "good reason" they are loaded behind the line but what is it? I'm asking because I honestly can't think of one that would be any safer than loading on the line. :idunno: I'm not saying that I oppose loading at a bench and advancing to the line while keeping control of the piece with the muzzle pointing in a safe direction.

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I have spent time on and around the ML matches at Friendship since the '70s. I was qualified to be a Range Officer years ago, but have not kept the qualification current. Rules regarding loading sites vary with the type of line you are shooting at, but keep in mind at Friendship CF and ML shooters are not mixed.

ON the pistol line the benches are at the firing line. The shooter loads the pistol facing the target with the loading bench in front of him.

On the offhand line, the loading benches are behind the line. The shooter loads powder and ball at the bench. He carries the rifle muzzle up (muzzle higher than his head) to and from the firing line. He caps or primes his rifle only when he is at the line.

ON the slug gun range the shooters use benches that are equipped to load at the end of the bench. There is a bench behind them, but their benches are set up to load at the end. This still places the loading materials behind the firing position.

Loading at the firing line for ML shooters places all the loading components where the sparks from caps and flint gases are. Loading at the bench keeps all the powder, etc away from open ignitions at the line. Since with CF shooters have completely enclosed ignitions this isn't necessary. Most bench and slug gun shooters use sealed ignition systems, but they still follow the same basic rules. The difference between safety issues for sealed ignitions and "open" ignition systems is the main thing here.

The NMLRA range commands are somewhat different too:
Cease Fire -- are there any hot ones?
(If there are) -- Dump it in the hill!
There are no hot ones.
Bench all rifles.
Make the line safe.
You may go forward , pull and post your targets.

(No one touches a gun until the range is open. You cannot bring a gun to the bench until the range is open again.)

I think the problem we have in this discussion is how to handle shooters with sealed ignitions and those with open ignitions on the same line. I'd guess that it is safer for the flintlock shooter to carry his rifle to and from the line with the muzzle higher than his head than it is to shoot his flintlock over a can of powder. This would be the position of the NMLRA.

I know this is too long; I didn't plan it that way.

Regards,
Pletch

Banning flintlocks and blackpowder revolvers then is the clearest way to mazimize protection of everyone. I can even show some videos of how dangerous they are in slow motion as proof!

Agreed!?

The whole premise is to reduce the risk of injury or fatality to an acceptable level IF an accident were to occur. You cannot completely remove the risk... there is always the potential of an improperly loaded round (reloaded cartridge in the breech or improperly loaded ML), plus the risk of a firearm that is not safe to fire.

I find it rather odd that some of the comments include the idea that it's equally safe in a line of muzzleloaders to load at the firing line as it is to load behind and move forward to the line, plus the idea that if it's just one muzzleloader, that would be fine on the line with modern guns... the clip that I included was of a lone muzzle loader shooter, on the line with modern shooters, when his powder supply ignited. Had his powder been behind the line would it have gone up? (OK had the knuckle head closed the container it probably wouldn't have gone up either.)

The range where I shoot has a limited number of "stations" that are rather spaced apart, so loading on the line or behind it is not an issue, the loading is done on the line..., but if it were more crowded, I would probably agree that behind and moving foreward is safer, then priming or capping.

The idea that other shooters of different igition systems will complain if they can't load behind the line is spurious..., for if one is arguing that muzzleloader shooters will simply have to comply because the rule is the rule, so then would breech loader shooters have to comply simply because there is a rule. There is a rule that no class II weapons may be fired on fully automatic fire at my range..., although the laws and the insurance allows it..., the rule is the rule.

One Question..., has anybody had the foresight to insert wording into the rules at their local range that define what the word "loaded" means? For in my state the legal definition of a loaded ML is that it is primed or capped..., so one would NOT be "loaded" by putting powder and ball down the barrel alone, and then walking to the line and capping or priming.

IF your rules don't define this, then does it say it's up the RO to determine when a firearm is loaded, and if not that I hope your range rules have a blanket phrase that says the RO may prohibit any activity that the RO deems to be unsafe. All y'all might think this is trivial, but how do you justify telling a knucklehead "please don't come back" if you don't have a rule against what was done nor a caveat rule that it was the RO's opinion and the RO's opinion is law.

Please don't respond to this with "everybody knows that". We have range rules because everybody doesn't... :grin:

LD

Please! Alden dont say that again. NSA is being watchful. They need no new projects on the other side.

Alden said:

Banning flintlocks and blackpowder revolvers then is the clearest way to mazimize protection of everyone. I can even show some videos of how dangerous they are in slow motion as proof!

Agreed!?

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Pulling a Rush Limbaugh? Illustrating ABSURDITY by being ABSURD?

dcriner said:

This thread is very interesting, but I'm having trouble identifying with all of it. Certainly, when I was in the military, somebody ran the show, although I don't remember them called a "range safety officer."

I am a member of a club that has six or seven separate ranges, all at one site, up against a high cliff. Some ranges are only for shotgun, archery, etc. But others are open for pistol and rifle (and, of course, black powder). During the times that I go, there are usually only 3 or 4 people at one time on the whole, multi-acre site. Range safety officer? Never seen or heard of one.

If my club were, for some reason, unavailable, I would probably buy some timber, and set up my own range.

I don't think I would much enjoy shooting under the supervision of a range safety officer.

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Organized League or Club Shoots are run with RSO's. Showing-up to a multi-acre facility / private club with several ranges (pits), selecting one for yourself & being your own RO is a completely different animal! I KNOW this since that's just what I can do midweek at my club's ranges!

My style of RO-ing is very low-key, so you'd probably be asking me to shoot your rifle and chit-chat. Especially if I offer you an ice cold bottle of water on a hot summer day! Not every RSO is an A-Hole!

Dave

Excellent post! I don't know a single example of a CF Shooter getting annoyed at a Muzzleloader loading behind the firing line! Most CF Shooters are in awe of muzzleloaders, don't know anything about them, give them a WIDE BERTH and JUMP at the opportunity to shoot one! And this repeats itself time & time again!

And I've never encountered any disputes over loading practices & safety procedures. Jersy folks can be high-strung at times, but when it comes to chamber flags & open bolts, not so much. And the newest Newbie isn't stupid enough to get mad at a ML not using a chamber flag, lol!

And the newest Newbie isn't stupid enough to get mad at a ML not using a chamber flag, lol!


Just give it a lil time, the stupidity factor must never be underestimated :shake: