Shooting Military rifles like they were designed to be used

[ResearchPress]

That's why I call it "competition creep". It started with , I assume, Target matches between Rifle Regiments or however it went down, just for bragging rights or some kind of prize

And I'm sure, right away, guys started looking to get an "edge" by using different bullets, making sure charges were consistent, etc etc and slowly the Rules became cemented , over the years, with the P58 shooters getting the 10% penalty and everything else, and we have those matches as they exist today.

In Great Britain there were small clubs engaged in target practice prior to the establishment of the Rifle Volunteers in 1859. The National Rifle Association was formed later the same year, and its aims included "the encouragement of Volunteer Rifle Corps and the promotion of rifle shooting throughout Great Britain." It is from that time that rifle shooting as a national sport originates in Great Britain. You're right, rules evolved as they do in any sport. They had to start somewhere and constantly evolved through the muzzle and breech loading era, introduction of smokeless powders, etc. Today's competition rules had to be newly written with the 'modern' revival of muzzle loading, and even today adapt.

In the 19thC there were many matches between Volunteer Regiments, more often in teams with maybe 10 - 20 men each team and shooting at several distances commencing at 200 yards. (This on my web site may interest: Enfield Rifle Team Shooting: Bristol vs Staffordshire). County Rifle Associations also evolved. Under NRA rules Volunteers fired with the Government Ammunition issued from the NRA magazine. Rules varied depending who was running the events - some permitted use of cartridge checkers for example, others did not. The NRA had two classes - Volunteer Rifle Matches where they competed using their arm of issue, and 'Any Rifle' open to all-comers. The latter was sometimes referred to as scientific rifle shooting, and other than a few basic rules covering the like of 10lb weight limit on the rifle, trigger pull and no telescope sights - gun makers had free reign and this is the class of rifle that developed for 1000 yard target shooting. The aim was to encourage innovation and advancement in rifle design.

Volunteer Riflemen competed with their arm, the Enfield, later the Snider, Martini-Henry, Lee-Metford... Even with breech loaders for Volunteers, the NRA issued ammunition - this from 1873 rules for example; "In all competitions restricted to Volunteers and Snider All Comers, none but the ammunition, issued from the N.R.A. at the firing point shall be used. The ammunition so issued shall in no way be tampered with."

I've never seen anything in contemporary rules about the 10% penalty you refer to, although have seen others writing in modern times say the same thing. If you can cite a contemporary source for that I'd been keen to know. Unless maybe a specific event, I can't find it in NRA(UK) rules.

I highly recommend, using these weapons the way they were designed to be used and were actually used in their military service . . . .
Being able to put on a cartridge box with 50 cartridges, and a cap box, and just shoot one after the other is just something special that I will never get tired of.

So unless you're looking purely at military musketry instruction / practice and shooting at the appropriate distances... my rambling note is just trying to show that how the Enfield was used in the 19thC differed with practitioners. Blasting away at 25 yards with a bunch of cartridges is no more or less meaningful than lobbing grease groove Minie bullets at targets 600 yards away in a competition today. Shooting at such extended ranges with the military muzzle loader is just something special that I will never get tired of.

It's almost like some people have turned them into purely platforms for competition use and subconsciously look down on those people using them as close to the original way they were used historically , as if you're "doing it wrong " by using paper cartridges and cartridge boxes to shoot military rifles designed to be used with paper cartridges and cartridge boxes .

And exactly the same can be said for the historically minded shooter who may give the impression of looking down upon those who enjoy using the military rifle for target shooting, as if you're "doing it wrong" by using a plastic phial with a pre-measured charge rather than a paper tube (cartridge), and loading a separate grease groove Minie style bullet.

David

 

[mark_fare]

I shot with the NSSA for one year. It didn't end well. But I did learn alot. The most important thing I learned was about a bullet lube called Len's Lube that is sold by one of the vendors at Fort Shenandoah. Best bullet lube I've ever used for black powder rifles.

 

[Stantheman86]

In Great Britain there were small clubs engaged in target practice prior to the establishment of the Rifle Volunteers in 1859. The National Rifle Association was formed later the same year, and its aims included "the encouragement of Volunteer Rifle Corps and the promotion of rifle shooting throughout Great Britain." It is from that time that rifle shooting as a national sport originates in Great Britain. You're right, rules evolved as they do in any sport. They had to start somewhere and constantly evolved through the muzzle and breech loading era, introduction of smokeless powders, etc. Today's competition rules had to be newly written with the 'modern' revival of muzzle loading, and even today adapt.

In the 19thC there were many matches between Volunteer Regiments, more often in teams with maybe 10 - 20 men each team and shooting at several distances commencing at 200 yards. (This on my web site may interest: Enfield Rifle Team Shooting: Bristol vs Staffordshire). County Rifle Associations also evolved. Under NRA rules Volunteers fired with the Government Ammunition issued from the NRA magazine. Rules varied depending who was running the events - some permitted use of cartridge checkers for example, others did not. The NRA had two classes - Volunteer Rifle Matches where they competed using their arm of issue, and 'Any Rifle' open to all-comers. The latter was sometimes referred to as scientific rifle shooting, and other than a few basic rules covering the like of 10lb weight limit on the rifle, trigger pull and no telescope sights - gun makers had free reign and this is the class of rifle that developed for 1000 yard target shooting. The aim was to encourage innovation and advancement in rifle design.

Volunteer Riflemen competed with their arm, the Enfield, later the Snider, Martini-Henry, Lee-Metford... Even with breech loaders for Volunteers, the NRA issued ammunition - this from 1873 rules for example; "In all competitions restricted to Volunteers and Snider All Comers, none but the ammunition, issued from the N.R.A. at the firing point shall be used. The ammunition so issued shall in no way be tampered with."

I've never seen anything in contemporary rules about the 10% penalty you refer to, although have seen others writing in modern times say the same thing. If you can cite a contemporary source for that I'd been keen to know. Unless maybe a specific event, I can't find it in NRA(UK) rules.


So unless you're looking purely at military musketry instruction / practice and shooting at the appropriate distances... my rambling note is just trying to show that how the Enfield was used in the 19thC differed with practitioners. Blasting away at 25 yards with a bunch of cartridges is no more or less meaningful than lobbing grease groove Minie bullets at targets 600 yards away in a competition today. Shooting at such extended ranges with the military muzzle loader is just something special that I will never get tired of.


And exactly the same can be said for the historically minded shooter who may give the impression of looking down upon those who enjoy using the military rifle for target shooting, as if you're "doing it wrong" by using a plastic phial with a pre-measured charge rather than a paper tube (cartridge), and loading a separate grease groove Minie style bullet.

David

It seems like there was a definite move away from "as issued " ammunition

Or "as issued " weapons

Hitting targets out to 600, 800, 1000+ yards is a "Soldier Skill" and back when accurately placed rifle fire en masse decided battles , these skills were celebrated and encouraged . It is plainly apparent why these matches started. Using issue military rifles and ammo to compete in Marksmanship matches. It was a show of Combat Prowess to be able to use a P53 to hit at 600 yards.

Then as you say, to paraphrase, other kinds of rifles were allowed in other classes, and the rules became a little less rigid

The N-SSA , correct me if I'm wrong , of course, took the Skirmish matches from semi-formal matches of friendly competition with original weapons and the rules started sliding into allowing glass bedding, lock jobs and high front sights as repros became more prevalent that "needed correcting " . Thus we have this class of shooters using Euroarms Zouaves to shoot cloverleafs at 50 yards. Competition is competition. It is still outside the original design of these weapons but honestly, no one really cares what anyone does as long as it doesn't directly effect them, but people still get defensive I guess .

These rifles were designed to allow soldiers to kill or wound other soldiers in combat. This is a fact. The original matches were designed to have competition showcasing the skills related to using military weapons effectively. 100 years later , their use to pop clay pigeons and paper plates with loose bullets and rubber wire cover caps holding powder is just an evolution related to hobby shooting and reenacting, and fire safety during matches.

Competition Shooting will always exist in it's own bubble outside of people who shoot recreationally or to experience history. People shooting in mil-surp matches were glass bedding Gew98's and using Timney triggers 20 years ago too, in some of the matches I shot that were "as issued" rifles only . Or repacking handloads into factory ammo boxes. People want to win, it is what it is. If a guy wants to glass bed a No 1 Mk III to win a TJ Maxx gift card then have at it.

 

[Stantheman86]

Target Rifles, with set triggers and the ability to use Tang sights. With carefully worked up loads , these Hawken type and other target rifles are extremely accurate

An original '61 Springfield, and a Pedersoli Charleville, with a couple Parker-Hales. These rifles will never shoot as well as the rifles above no matter what you do to them or what you load them with. They are muskets and rifles made for use by soldiers in battle, with paper cartridges.

The Volunteer .451 and my P53 with a windage adjustable rear target sight , and a trigger job kind of exist as "Target rifles that look like military rifles"

There is a proper tool for every job , but you can also make a tool work good enough for jobs it wasn't designed for if you try really hard and can't use the other tools

 

[ResearchPress]

It seems like there was a definite move away from "as issued " ammunition
Or "as issued " weapons

No, that‘s not correct (insofar as Volunteer shooting with the military rifle in 19thC Great Britain).

In competitions open to Rifle Volunteers they used their “as issued” service arm, be it Enfield, Snider, Martini-Henry… and these were fired with “as issued“ ammunition under NRA(UK) rules. Private purchase rifles could be used, but they had to carry an inspection mark that verified they were bona fide Pattern arms. Some regional matches permitted Volunteers to bring their own Government ammunition, or purchase it on the range. It needs to be remembered that the Rifle Volunteers were raised at a time of perceived threat of invasion and they were a home defence organisation - as such in the muzzle loading era their arms had to take the Government cartridge and percussion cap. It was in the national interest to encourage marksmanship skills. Competition was distinct and separate from the musketry instruction and drill that the Volunteers did on a weekly basis.

The Enfield wasn’t considered accurate enough for target shooting beyond 600 yards. So, for the Queen’s Prize, competitive gunmakers trials were held by the NRA in the early 1860s, with a view to selecting a rifle to be used by Volunteers who reached the final stage of the event fired at 900 & 1000 yards. The finalists were issued a rifle to use for this event only (a Whitworth most years) . . . the top placed men being able to keep the rifle as a prize for their achievement. The winner also received a Gold Medal and £250 prize money.

Hitting targets out to 600, 800, 1000+ yards is a "Soldier Skill" and back when accurately placed rifle fire en masse decided battles , these skills were celebrated and encouraged . It is plainly apparent why these matches started. Using issue military rifles and ammo to compete in Marksmanship matches. It was a show of Combat Prowess to be able to use a P53 to hit at 600 yards.

Completely separate from the Volunteer only events were ‘Any Rifle’ events that were open to ’All Comers’. This is the class where they were shooting out to 1000 yards. The military rifles gave way to military target rifles, usually of .45 bore, with more refined open sights and checkered full length stocks, these later evolving into full match rifles with half stocks, pistol grip and aperture sights. Ram rod was removed to allow a heavier barrel and still keep within the 10lb weight limit. Rules governing the rifle were deliberately less strict to encourage gun makers to innovate and design improved arms.

By far the most shooting in NRA(UK) events was by Volunteers shooting as issued service rifles with as issued ammunition, and this continued through the introduction of breech loaders.

Competition Shooting will always exist in it's own bubble outside of people who shoot recreationally or to experience history.

I’d argue that competition shooting is shooting recreationally - but that‘s getting into semantics. Historical Shooting is much the same, existing in its own bubble outside of the interest of many.

Not sure where all this is leading, but it’s an interesting chat…!

David

 

[ResearchPress]

Target Rifles, with set triggers and the ability to use Tang sights. With carefully worked up loads , these Hawken type and other target rifles are extremely accurate

An original '61 Springfield, and a Pedersoli Charleville, with a couple Parker-Hales. These rifles will never shoot as well as the rifles above no matter what you do to them or what you load them with. They are muskets and rifles made for use by soldiers in battle, with paper cartridges.

The Volunteer .451 and my P53 with a windage adjustable rear target sight , and a trigger job kind of exist as "Target rifles that look like military rifles"

In the British 'Any Rifle' matches, set triggers weren't permitted. Not sure at what distances the 'Hawken type' rifles were fired at, but the .577 military rifle, fired with paper cartridges, may out-perform them at extended ranges.

The so-called 'Volunteer .451' was not actually a Volunteer rifle, as it could not take the Government .577 ammunition. These rifles would have been used in 'Any Rifle' matches. They were in the group of rifles referred to in the 19thC as small-bore, being generally of .45 bore in contrast with the large-bore .577 service rifle. Initially outwardly appearing as a military rifle, they gradually evolved - more refined open sights were installed, spur trigger guards came into use, aperture sights were added, the full length stock was replaced with a half stock with pistol grip. The final form of muzzle loading Any Rifle is typified by the Gibbs-Metford shown below:

Contemporary rules for this class of rifle were a maximum weight of 10lbs. Sights of any description, except telescopic or magnifying. Minimum pull of trigger 3lb. These basic rules allowed gunmakers to innovate and improve rifle design.

The Volunteers in their events would have been using the service rifles of bona fide Government pattern.

David

 

[dylan84]

I often wonder what folks from the 1800's would think about these types of conversations.

 

[mark_fare]

I often wonder what folks from the 1800's would think about these types of conversations.

I know how some of us think in 2022 about these types of conversations!

 

[Steveoko922]

Hey that's my old parker hale. That's killed ALOT a deer. The naked 575213 and 60g of 3f is what I used. I've had luck with pritchetts but you need a very stiff charge. Trigger is nice huh?

 

[Steveoko922]

I prefer military rifles over hunting and sporting rifles. Military rifles look and feel more rugged and like others have said, designed for ease of use and are accurate ENOUGH.

A simple rifle with a military charge puts down animals....it's simple!

However, there are exceptions....all of my black powder Swiss military rifles shoot like target rifles with little effort. A Vetterli is goofy looking, but seriously accurate.

 

[Stantheman86]

Hey that's my old parker hale. That's killed ALOT a deer. The naked 575213 and 60g of 3f is what I used. I've had luck with pritchetts but you need a very stiff charge. Trigger is nice huh?

The trigger is awesome, hopefully that Miroku is a solid shooter

I have finally gotten around to shooting the P-H I got in our trade and it's definitely a shooter

 

[Stantheman86]

No, that‘s not correct (insofar as Volunteer shooting with the military rifle in 19thC Great Britain).

In competitions open to Rifle Volunteers they used their “as issued” service arm, be it Enfield, Snider, Martini-Henry… and these were fired with “as issued“ ammunition under NRA(UK) rules. Private purchase rifles could be used, but they had to carry an inspection mark that verified they were bona fide Pattern arms. Some regional matches permitted Volunteers to bring their own Government ammunition, or purchase it on the range. It needs to be remembered that the Rifle Volunteers were raised at a time of perceived threat of invasion and they were a home defence organisation - as such in the muzzle loading era their arms had to take the Government cartridge and percussion cap. It was in the national interest to encourage marksmanship skills. Competition was distinct and separate from the musketry instruction and drill that the Volunteers did on a weekly basis.

The Enfield wasn’t considered accurate enough for target shooting beyond 600 yards. So, for the Queen’s Prize, competitive gunmakers trials were held by the NRA in the early 1860s, with a view to selecting a rifle to be used by Volunteers who reached the final stage of the event fired at 900 & 1000 yards. The finalists were issued a rifle to use for this event only (a Whitworth most years) . . . the top placed men being able to keep the rifle as a prize for their achievement. The winner also received a Gold Medal and £250 prize money.


Completely separate from the Volunteer only events were ‘Any Rifle’ events that were open to ’All Comers’. This is the class where they were shooting out to 1000 yards. The military rifles gave way to military target rifles, usually of .45 bore, with more refined open sights and checkered full length stocks, these later evolving into full match rifles with half stocks, pistol grip and aperture sights. Ram rod was removed to allow a heavier barrel and still keep within the 10lb weight limit. Rules governing the rifle were deliberately less strict to encourage gun makers to innovate and design improved arms.

By far the most shooting in NRA(UK) events was by Volunteers shooting as issued service rifles with as issued ammunition, and this continued through the introduction of breech loaders.


I’d argue that competition shooting is shooting recreationally - but that‘s getting into semantics. Historical Shooting is much the same, existing in its own bubble outside of the interest of many.

Not sure where all this is leading, but it’s an interesting chat…!

David

I love these conversations because it's a chance to converse with really intelligent people about actually shooting these firearms

Plus the history behind the original Rifle Matches is fascinating, I have learned things here that I never would have ever known about otherwise


If people think I'm coming off as an ass then I apologize, I just enjoy a spirited discussion

 

[Stantheman86]

I often wonder what folks from the 1800's would think about these types of conversations.

I really hope that in 150 years people are arguing somewhere about the proper way to use an M16 all like "back in the Nam and in Iraq they used 'em like they were supposed to be used! 3" at 100 was good enough for my Great X3 grandpa it's good enough for me!"

Then some other guy is like "yeah because you know what 5.56 service loads were like 150 years ago you weren't there.....if you want to load those silly brass cartridges with that manure 2000s type powder stuff, bless yer heart , I use the polymer shells and graphite bullet and I shoot .5" at my Desert Storm Skirmish shoots with my antique M16A2 but go ahead and be historical with your "period" ammo"

I'd imagine the ghosts of Civil War soldiers would think we were all a bunch of knobs for sitting around on our glowing boxes arguing about weapons they probably hated and were a PITA to load and fire .....and the ones that stayed in the Army long enough probably couldn't wait to get rid of them when Trapdoors came out.....

They'd be like, these dudes are really arguing about the right way to use guns that we mostly fired over each others heads and we just jammed bullets into them and fired , hoping not to die....and now these jerks are fighting over how accurate they should be Jeb come look at this stantheman86 jerk all talking about the "proper use" of the Enfield

 

[Steveoko922]

I prefer military rifles over hunting and sporting rifles. Military rifles look and feel more rugged and like others have said, designed for ease of use and are accurate ENOUGH.

A simple rifle with a military charge puts down animals....it's simple!

However, there are exceptions....all of my black powder Swiss military rifles shoot like target rifles with little effort. A Vetterli is goofy looking, but seriously accurate.

The trigger is awesome, hopefully that Miroku is a solid shooter

I have finally gotten around to shooting the P-H I got in our trade and it's definitely a shooter

The trigger is awesome, hopefully that Miroku is a solid shooter

I have finally gotten around to shooting the P-H I got in our trade and it's definitely a shooter

I sold it and ended up getting a pair of vetterli rifles. Too many rifled muskets on my wall.

I never shot the ph at 200 but my wife and I could keep it on a 3x3 steel target at 300 yards with the sights set to 400 and a 6 o clock hold.

 

[dylan84]

Well @Stantheman86 all I know is a want a rifled musket now more than ever after looking at your posts. Definitely make a great deer rifle as stated above. After my success this year with my Hawken, I won't hunt deer with smokeless again. I really think I'm aiming for a musketoon at this point. That would make a sweet compact hunting rig or paper cartridge range blaster! If I can get this particular grease groove bullet to shoot good in my Renegade, I plan on making cartridges for that.

 

[Steveoko922]

Well @Stantheman86 all I know is a want a rifled musket now more than ever after looking at your posts. Definitely make a great deer rifle as stated above. After my success this year with my Hawken, I won't hunt deer with smokeless again. I really think I'm aiming for a musketoon at this point. That would make a sweet compact hunting rig or paper cartridge range blaster! If I can get this particular grease groove bullet to shoot good in my Renegade, I plan on making cartridges for that.

Na avoid the musketoon. I never got mine shooting like the longer 2 and 3 bands. The longer barrels help keeping steady with standing snap shots.

 

[dylan84]

Na avoid the musketoon. I never got mine shooting like the longer 2 and 3 bands. The longer barrels help keeping steady with standing snap shots.

Good to know thanks!

 

[Stantheman86]

I sold it and ended up getting a pair of vetterli rifles. Too many rifled muskets on my wall.

I never shot the ph at 200 but my wife and I could keep it on a 3x3 steel target at 300 yards with the sights set to 400 and a 6 o clock hold.

I love seeing pics and hearing about the "past life" of this rifle, it's neat

Hitting a 3x3 steel plate at 300 yards roughly translates to a hit on a man sized target, which is excellent accuracy.

 

[Stantheman86]

Well @Stantheman86 all I know is a want a rifled musket now more than ever after looking at your posts. Definitely make a great deer rifle as stated above. After my success this year with my Hawken, I won't hunt deer with smokeless again. I really think I'm aiming for a musketoon at this point. That would make a sweet compact hunting rig or paper cartridge range blaster! If I can get this particular grease groove bullet to shoot good in my Renegade, I plan on making cartridges for that.

I have fired my 2 Musketoons extensively, I have posts about them on here

The extremely short sight radius makes them tougher to hit with past 100 but Match shooters have done really well with them.

I don't often shoot past 100 unless I'm shooting at steel swingers, I got the feel for the Musketoons and was able to get consistent to 100. They weren't originally intended for long range volley fire but as defensive weapons for Artillery crews or other rear echelon personnel

They are very sweet handling and easy to load rifles but they are unforgiving at longer ranges because you're giving up over 20" of barrel and sight radius over a 3-Bander .

The 33" rifles are really nice , in any flavor. My .54 Mississippi is a tack driver with Minies and round balls. The repros have heavy barrels and 33" seems like the sweet spot where everything just comes together.

 

[Steveoko922]

I've heard those are nice rifles! I've never shot a .69 however. I'd jump on an orginal if I found one