Original Hawken Barrels Question

Greetings all, just wondering, I heard somewhere that the barrels on the original Hawken Bros. rifles all had a 1/48" ROT. Does anyone know if this is indeed the case? If not, what ROT then and any facts on rifling depth and barrel length? Been thinking on building a Hawken and would like to replicate their rifles as close as possible. Are there any good links to the detailed specifications of the Hawken rifles to be found? Thanks for any and all input

1:48" twist - 7 groove - rifling depth .012-.016"

lengths: 30-42" - majority were straight tapered, with some being swamped, and very few straight.
Length and exterior dimensions would depnd on time period and style, but then again they were mostly cusotm built and were not cookie cutter rifles so there were many variations.

IMO if you want to build the closest thing to an original contact Don Stith at www.donstith.com - his kits are based on his original Hawkens and he will supply you with the correct info on how to build one right.

Thanks LaBonte, I'll have to check out the link, very much appreciated. Huntsman

contact greg @ thehawkenshop.I built one from their kit.a full size blueprint comes with it.these are the closest to original you can get period.

Since they were strictly round ball guns I would seriously doubt they used 1-48 twist. More likely somewhere between 1-60 to 1-72. 1-48 twist came into use with Sharps carbines in 50-70 and other BPCr of that era.

Funnily enough I just got through reading the chapter in the Blackpowder Handbook by Sam Fadala dealing with the history of the Hawken. Allegedly (according to research) all actual 'Hawken' brand plains rifles were 1/48" ROT. The story is that Samuel & Jacob only possessed 1 rifling machine & it was set for a four foot twist. Barrel length is quoted as being anywhere from 30 to 36" Bear in mind that every single rifle was hand made, 1 at a time. The chances of there being 2 identical original Hawken Bros. rifles are slim to none.

zrifleman said:

Since they were strictly round ball guns I would seriously doubt they used 1-48 twist. More likely somewhere between 1-60 to 1-72. 1-48 twist came into use with Sharps carbines in 50-70 and other BPCr of that era.

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There were 48" twist originals perhaps most or all were. Would have to dig to find if there were other twists. A quick look through Baird's "Hawken Rifles" shows only 1:48 mentioned.
48" is a perfectly acceptable RB twist to at least 58 caliber.
The gov't twist for the 50-70 was 40" IIRC. Sharps used 36" for the 50s. But 36" produces mediocre accuracy in cartridge guns once past 150-200 yards and most modern shooters use a 22" or 24" for 50 calibers.

Dan

Since they were strictly round ball guns I would seriously doubt they used 1-48 twist. More likely somewhere between 1-60 to 1-72. 1-48 twist came into use with Sharps carbines in 50-70 and other BPCr of that era.

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The facts state otherwise - 1:48" twist is the most commonly found twist used on extant round ball American Long rifles including Hawkens from the 1700's through the 1800's. The facts I quoted above are based on actual examination of the existing Hawken rifles and their rifling machines and not speculation.
A 1:48" twist with proper deep rifling works just fine in a roundball rifle and generally uses less powder to get the accuracy and power needed to the job - try it an see. It was not a twist designed for conical guns, it predates them by several decades.

A quick look through Baird's "Hawken Rifles" shows only 1:48 mentioned.

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As Dan noted re: Baird's boo - the Parkman rifle for sure is a 50 caliber 1:48" and later in the book, John asked barrel maker Bill Large about the Hawken barrels he'd examined over the years, and Bill who examined plenty of old Hawken barrels stated that they were all 1:48" mostly 7 groove (a few 6 groove, possibly store bought barrels??) with groove depth of .012" - .014"

The matter of ROT & its effect on the accuracy of the bound ball is (in my opinion) rather misunderstood. I've been dinking around making barrels for the last 15 yrs or so. Using a sine bar machine I've pulled everything from 48" to 84" ROT. If the barrel is properly reamed, by that I mean that it is uniform dia. from end to end or reamed with a slight choke, they all seem to shoot pretty much the same. By slight choke I would say no more than 3/4 of a thousandths or so. Much more than that & they can start blowing patches. A tight patch on a jag pushed thru this reamed hole should feel smooth as glass from end to end.

Paul

shortstring said:

The matter of ROT & its effect on the accuracy of the bound ball is (in my opinion) rather misunderstood. I've been dinking around making barrels for the last 15 yrs or so. Using a sine bar machine I've pulled everything from 48" to 84" ROT. If the barrel is properly reamed, by that I mean that it is uniform dia. from end to end or reamed with a slight choke, they all seem to shoot pretty much the same. By slight choke I would say no more than 3/4 of a thousandths or so. Much more than that & they can start blowing patches. A tight patch on a jag pushed thru this reamed hole should feel smooth as glass from end to end.

Paul

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I would agree. I have seen people on the web sites agonizing over either a 66 or 72 twist as if a few inches would matter.
I think rather than misunderstood I think its over thought.


Dan

I have heard of faster twists in 1800 era rifles also, the main difference between most of the guns today and then is the depth which may make them picky with what one shoots or the load one uses.I believ some of the shorter barreled German guns had faster twists but that is not uncommon as the barrel gets shorter.I do not know about the pre AWI barrels which were mostly imported from Europe.