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Tried to Make Sparks
- Thread starter paco97
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They must have changed them over the years.About the only part that looks the same is the length of the lock.Spring looks different,the pan,frizzen and hammer.Wheather thats better or worse i dont know
Mines all flat metal,plain Jane looken in comparison.
Mines all flat metal,plain Jane looken in comparison.
paulvallandigham
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Swampman: I respect and welcome all your advice, but on this, I can't let you get away with your statement that lead wraps will break a cock or damage it. I just took my lead wrap off my flint and weighed it: - 52.5 GRAINS. That is 12 percent of an Ounce!-
I did not take my cock off the lock to weigh it, but my .50 Cal. Cochran, rifle-sized lock has a gooseneck cock that has to weigh a couple of ounces. You are trying to tell people that putting 12 percent more weight on the end of the cock is going to break it???? Or damage it?
My personal experience involves shooting this gun with its flint wrap for well over a thousand shots. I don't keep count, so I won't dare go and estimate higher than that. The cock is just fine. No signs of cracks, or crystalization. I make my wraps by using a reject RB that I hammer flat. Then I trim it to the rectangular shape I need, and leave it about 1/32 thick. I cut off anything that does not fit under the jaws, as such ends just get in the way. My 50 ca. balls weigh in at 170 grains, so I am using less than half of the lead available to make the wrap. I noticed this wrap is getting pretty thin, after all the squeezing down it gets when I put in new flints. I may just have to break out another flint wrap from my flint purse ( I keep extra flints, and some flattened balls to make repairs or substitutions in the field)and make another wrap. Lets see: This one lasted 15 years. Maybe the next will be on the gun when they screw me into the ground?
I am also sorry that you are shocked that I don't have to knapp my flints anymore, and that Buckknife read my article on[url] www.chuckhawks.com/flintlocks.htm,[/url] has followed my advice and obtained similar results. I learned that " trick" from a fine man, and friend, the late Don M. Latter, who was a gun builder, who taught himself to tune flintlocks. I am almost 59 years old, several years older than you, and I joined this forum to learn anything new. Is it really so hard for you to learn something new, and change what you have been doing? I have learned a couple of things from reading your posts, and will be always greatful to you for sharing your knowledge. But I am going to challenge you anytime I think you are shooting from the hip, and really don't know what you are talking about. YOu have too much experience to be saying things that make you look silly, my friend.
I did not take my cock off the lock to weigh it, but my .50 Cal. Cochran, rifle-sized lock has a gooseneck cock that has to weigh a couple of ounces. You are trying to tell people that putting 12 percent more weight on the end of the cock is going to break it???? Or damage it?
My personal experience involves shooting this gun with its flint wrap for well over a thousand shots. I don't keep count, so I won't dare go and estimate higher than that. The cock is just fine. No signs of cracks, or crystalization. I make my wraps by using a reject RB that I hammer flat. Then I trim it to the rectangular shape I need, and leave it about 1/32 thick. I cut off anything that does not fit under the jaws, as such ends just get in the way. My 50 ca. balls weigh in at 170 grains, so I am using less than half of the lead available to make the wrap. I noticed this wrap is getting pretty thin, after all the squeezing down it gets when I put in new flints. I may just have to break out another flint wrap from my flint purse ( I keep extra flints, and some flattened balls to make repairs or substitutions in the field)and make another wrap. Lets see: This one lasted 15 years. Maybe the next will be on the gun when they screw me into the ground?
I am also sorry that you are shocked that I don't have to knapp my flints anymore, and that Buckknife read my article on[url] www.chuckhawks.com/flintlocks.htm,[/url] has followed my advice and obtained similar results. I learned that " trick" from a fine man, and friend, the late Don M. Latter, who was a gun builder, who taught himself to tune flintlocks. I am almost 59 years old, several years older than you, and I joined this forum to learn anything new. Is it really so hard for you to learn something new, and change what you have been doing? I have learned a couple of things from reading your posts, and will be always greatful to you for sharing your knowledge. But I am going to challenge you anytime I think you are shooting from the hip, and really don't know what you are talking about. YOu have too much experience to be saying things that make you look silly, my friend.
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I don't have an opinion on the lead issue, but I have to say that a great many flintlock shooters will tell you that it greatly raises the chance that the cock will break. This was one of the first things I was told when I got my first one by several folks after someone had told me to hammer a ball out and use it to wrap the flint. Since the guy telling me is a builder that is well respected, I never tried it. I never did it, and I did not wrap the flint at all for the first few hundred shots. Since then I use leather. Last time I was at a BassPro, they still carried replacement frizzens for the Traditions locks.
The lead wrap gambit was mostly utilized by the military of different nations. They were often preformed to flints, ready to be used as a unit. When in the heat of battle, t'was no time to be fiddling around when it came to changing flints.
paulvallandigham
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I have seen a lot of complaints about Traditions locks here lately. I hope those people who are having trouble with locks getting sparks, or with poor geometry will send a note to the company. They should stand by their products. And, they should want to know if a subcontractor is shipping them castings that have not been hardened and tempered. If a cock is properly hardened, and then tempered, there should never be a problem with it breaking. Same for frizzens that don't spark. All I can say is please read my article. I have tested everything I say in it, over years, and have learned much of it from experts who showed my why they were correct and I was wrong. So, I have been where you are at, and done that. I changed. I hope you will test my advice out, and change when you find it works, like I did. I did not invent this stuff I write about. I just put it all together.
Wasp nest material does not burn easily. It protects the patch without catching fire.
Your way of tuning a lock may be very good. I am not enough of a flintlock shooter to know. I do know that some champion shooters would argue with several of your ideas. Others might agree with you completely. I will try some of your ideas.
My gun goes off just fine thankfully. It is one of the Tradition's cheap locks that doesn't have a bridle or fly. The hole is too low and the pan leaks powder bad when you move around with the gun. My fixes that are needed are mechanical.
Your way of tuning a lock may be very good. I am not enough of a flintlock shooter to know. I do know that some champion shooters would argue with several of your ideas. Others might agree with you completely. I will try some of your ideas.
My gun goes off just fine thankfully. It is one of the Tradition's cheap locks that doesn't have a bridle or fly. The hole is too low and the pan leaks powder bad when you move around with the gun. My fixes that are needed are mechanical.
paulvallandigham
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I have had feelers out for two years for a wasp nest so I can test it as a filler. I have many reasons to believe that the longhunters used wasp nest as filler under their PRB. The patching was homespun, and by the very nature of the cloth, they could not depend on it to seal the bore from gases burning around the ball. A sealer had to be used to get any kind of consistent accuracy. If you know anyone who has a wasp nest, I would be grateful to be introduced.I have been using card wads, and fiber wads over the powder to protect my PRB. Both work, but the card wads seem to give the best velocities in my smoothbore.
"Is it really so hard for you to learn something new, and change what you have been doing?"
After 30 years in the hobby, yes it is. Lead wraps will break stuff. They slow the lock down, and put a lot of stress on (internal & external)parts that are just cast metal. You are the only flintlock shooter I've ever heard of that didn't have to knap flints. Maybe you're on to something. I'll keep knapping.
After 30 years in the hobby, yes it is. Lead wraps will break stuff. They slow the lock down, and put a lot of stress on (internal & external)parts that are just cast metal. You are the only flintlock shooter I've ever heard of that didn't have to knap flints. Maybe you're on to something. I'll keep knapping.
Swampman
I don't have a dog in this fight but I will say I have shot flintlocks for about 25 years and I use leather wraps for the flint.
My question to you and Paul is do either of you have factual evidence to support you claims, by that I mean a study done under controlled conditions which would include precise timeing and high speed photos to back it up. This would have to be done under similar conditions such as the artical in the Journal of Historic Armsmaking Technology (I think in volume 4) which illustrated the speed of flinlock ignition.
Both of you make claims based on reasonable assumptions and both I think are well thought out.
I personally believe there maybe a slight difference in speed ect.. but it is so minute that for 999.9 of locks it won't be noticeable or a problem. A lock that functions well with one but not the other probably has other issues that are as much, if not more important to address, such as friction rates and spring strengths ect..
Please don't take this as a shot at either of you, it's not, but I think until it can be tested and proved with a scientific and controlled test there can't be a definitive answer.
I have enjoyed your thoughts and they do make me think which is a good thing.
Regards, Dave
I don't have a dog in this fight but I will say I have shot flintlocks for about 25 years and I use leather wraps for the flint.
My question to you and Paul is do either of you have factual evidence to support you claims, by that I mean a study done under controlled conditions which would include precise timeing and high speed photos to back it up. This would have to be done under similar conditions such as the artical in the Journal of Historic Armsmaking Technology (I think in volume 4) which illustrated the speed of flinlock ignition.
Both of you make claims based on reasonable assumptions and both I think are well thought out.
I personally believe there maybe a slight difference in speed ect.. but it is so minute that for 999.9 of locks it won't be noticeable or a problem. A lock that functions well with one but not the other probably has other issues that are as much, if not more important to address, such as friction rates and spring strengths ect..
Please don't take this as a shot at either of you, it's not, but I think until it can be tested and proved with a scientific and controlled test there can't be a definitive answer.
I have enjoyed your thoughts and they do make me think which is a good thing.
Regards, Dave
DrTimboone
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Well, I use leather wraps for my flints cause I had so much trouble getting a reliable spark a few years back when I bought a Pedersoli Kentucky .50. So now I have found it easier to use leather....can't really prove its better cause I changed so many things trying not to misfire on the next buck!!
What does puzzle me is that Pedersoli which has a pretty good rep for accuracy etc. in Europe...and even in some matches in the US; ships the rifle with a lead wrapper for the flint and recommends the lead wrapper.....Perhaps they have done some hard research that we can look at. I will email them to see......Meanwhile my English roundfaced Chambers is still using leather to hold the flints. :hmm: very interestingto see if there is any research results from controlled experiments.
Tim
What does puzzle me is that Pedersoli which has a pretty good rep for accuracy etc. in Europe...and even in some matches in the US; ships the rifle with a lead wrapper for the flint and recommends the lead wrapper.....Perhaps they have done some hard research that we can look at. I will email them to see......Meanwhile my English roundfaced Chambers is still using leather to hold the flints. :hmm: very interestingto see if there is any research results from controlled experiments.
Tim
I just got back from a weekend trip with my wife! I really ahven't had much time to do anything with my flintlock except to try the file test. I just got off the phone with traditions and they said in December some of their PA Pellets had problems with the frizzens not getting properly hardened, but haven't had any reports from the PA longrifles like mine. She said they will send out a new frizzen in the next couple weeks, at their expense, when they receive a new shipment of them. I'll take this frizzen apart and get it hardened, then will have a new one on the way.
I have a lock here given to me by a forum member that needed work anyway. It would hang at the bottom of the frizzen if the bevel was up. The only way it would open the frizzen all the way was if the bevel was down and the flint hit the frizzen very high up. The sparks mostly did not end up in the pan and the flint was pointing in front of the pan when down. It has a very heavy mainspring and a heavy frizzen spring also. The flint was in bare jaws.
First I took the frizzen off fixed the edge of of the heel that the flint was catching and stopping on so the flint could be mounted pointing at the pan. Just a couple of seconds on the belt sander took care of that. I checked the surfaces where the spring and the frizzen meet for burs or rough surfaces. I put the frizzen back on without the spring. The lock sparked just fine without it, so I went to work with a file working on making the spring about half as strong as it was. I stopped short of going that far, but it is noticably easier to open now. I tested it with the flint still in bare jaws. Better with a higher percentage of the sparks in the pan. Then I went out and got a piece of lead sheeting from and xray room wall that I use for casting muzzleloading bullets. I was going to use it the way it was, but quickly found out that there is very little room in this lock for a thick wrap of any kind. I hammered it out until it was pretty thin and then wrapped the flint with it. The weight after trimming is not enough to even worry about when it is that thin. I did not sharpen the flint. I tested the lock with the lead wrapped flint. Now I have good sparks landing in the pan and even some dancing sparks in the pan. That is pretty good with a dull cut flint that has about 30 strikes on it now.
While the improvement is a combination of several changes, there is no doubt the lead wrap helped considerably because I tested along the way at each step.
I then went and got the Traditions Deerhunter out. It uses a leather wrapped very small flint turned bevel down. Bevel up does almost nothing and only hits a small fraction of the frizzen. On that lock, the lead wrap made no change at all. It may have an impact on flint life, but I will not know that until I try it on the range.
I guess in the end it depends on that specific lock, how much lead you use to wrap the flint, how well the lock fires with the leather wrap to start with, and how long the flints last in your gun to before trying the lead. I will likely do some more filing on the frizzen springs on both locks before I am done because the first adjustment worked very well. That is enough play with the flintlocks for today!
First I took the frizzen off fixed the edge of of the heel that the flint was catching and stopping on so the flint could be mounted pointing at the pan. Just a couple of seconds on the belt sander took care of that. I checked the surfaces where the spring and the frizzen meet for burs or rough surfaces. I put the frizzen back on without the spring. The lock sparked just fine without it, so I went to work with a file working on making the spring about half as strong as it was. I stopped short of going that far, but it is noticably easier to open now. I tested it with the flint still in bare jaws. Better with a higher percentage of the sparks in the pan. Then I went out and got a piece of lead sheeting from and xray room wall that I use for casting muzzleloading bullets. I was going to use it the way it was, but quickly found out that there is very little room in this lock for a thick wrap of any kind. I hammered it out until it was pretty thin and then wrapped the flint with it. The weight after trimming is not enough to even worry about when it is that thin. I did not sharpen the flint. I tested the lock with the lead wrapped flint. Now I have good sparks landing in the pan and even some dancing sparks in the pan. That is pretty good with a dull cut flint that has about 30 strikes on it now.
While the improvement is a combination of several changes, there is no doubt the lead wrap helped considerably because I tested along the way at each step.
I then went and got the Traditions Deerhunter out. It uses a leather wrapped very small flint turned bevel down. Bevel up does almost nothing and only hits a small fraction of the frizzen. On that lock, the lead wrap made no change at all. It may have an impact on flint life, but I will not know that until I try it on the range.
I guess in the end it depends on that specific lock, how much lead you use to wrap the flint, how well the lock fires with the leather wrap to start with, and how long the flints last in your gun to before trying the lead. I will likely do some more filing on the frizzen springs on both locks before I am done because the first adjustment worked very well. That is enough play with the flintlocks for today!
Paul
I generally find a couple of Hornets nests in the Spring when I'm turkey hunting. I collected a couple for myself last year. It's about time to start scouting for turkeys and I may see a nest or two but I'm a little hesitant to bring them indoors at this time of year they may still be an active nest. I found this out while still in high school brought one home from a hunting trip to take to school and a couple of hours later had a bed room full of very angry hornets (try and find Hornet spray in January at the store). If you still want them when the weather warms a little bit more I'm sure I can find you some.
Regards, Dave
I generally find a couple of Hornets nests in the Spring when I'm turkey hunting. I collected a couple for myself last year. It's about time to start scouting for turkeys and I may see a nest or two but I'm a little hesitant to bring them indoors at this time of year they may still be an active nest. I found this out while still in high school brought one home from a hunting trip to take to school and a couple of hours later had a bed room full of very angry hornets (try and find Hornet spray in January at the store). If you still want them when the weather warms a little bit more I'm sure I can find you some.
Regards, Dave
