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Touch Hole?

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With flintlocking, we all do our own thang maybe more than with any other avocation.
I respect yer opinons but don't agree for the most part. I think 1/16" hole is too tiny for reliability. I have never had powder trickle into the pan while charging and that is with a variety of guns.
I do agree a coned liner is a big help to ignition regardless of whether or not the original hole has burned out. I dunno if that really happens much, my jury is still out on that.
 
I would like to see that testing data as well but would bet the other way.

And you would be wrong. And you can see the exact results as I did this test last summer and posted the results right here on the forum. A search, should find it for you. But it depends on what you consider a big difference, it takes an additional 5 to 8 grain of powder to equal the velocity loss. This is comparing the very small touch hole liner that comes with a GPR to one that has been enlarged with a drill.
My preference is .070, not 5/64ths, however. Powder does not trickle out of the touch hole or at the least not enough to make any difference.
 
larry wv said:
I can't see why a bigger touch hole would be less accurate than a small one. Have heard that a lot but can't see why. :idunno: Larry Wv

It doesn’t as long as it is the same, each and every time you shoot. Tested that one too!
Consistency is the key word here. :thumbsup:
 
I've had enough 3F powder dribble into the pan to fire without priming (1/16" hole). Usually have to slap the rifle a time or two to make a few kernels come out but not always. That's why I consider a gun to be loaded and ready to shoot even without prime and I treat it as such.
 
Ebiggs,

I read the data you published. Thanks for that work.

"This is a typical 5 shot string but the others were similar." Why not just post all the data from the test?

I have to ask how many strings did you fire with each touch hole size and was the extreme spread of all shots and the average extreme spread of strings of with small and large size touch holes.

If the velocity loss can simply be made up by adding powder then no problem. On the other hand if there is a significant increase in the standard deviation from large to small hole, then it is worth more consideration.

Reading through threads I see many folks who say they get consistent results with 1/16 and many who have gone larger and swear by it.

Your test convinced you still I think it is not enough data to close the book.

"Jim Chambers:
Larry,
The Bevel guys say they leave the hole size as it comes from us and shoot until the hole enlarges beyond 1/16". With the loads they are shooting they shoot approximately 3000 shots before they need to change liners."

I'm guessing they don't tolerate inconsistant ignition.

Bob
 
I would like to see the sources that gives the percentages of originals that have been had a liner installed, most that we see that have not have larger holes than 1/16, the use of a liner itself is not consistant with originals from the shop except in fairly rare situations in the colonies, many have went to a plain hole between 1/16 and 5/64 and are doing quite well and actually experienceing the same conditions/technology that folks shooting originals did, we certainly do not want to close the book on that either.there is constantly someone posting that just a size or two bigger than 1/16 increases reliability with no loss of accuracy.
 
I know the isn't much of a sorce but Track of The wolf says

"Only the better quality London made guns were factory fitted with vent liners, but nearly all flint guns were later fitted with vent liners, after the vent hole in the barrel became worn from flash erosion, corrosion, or the aggressive use of a vent pick."

Bob
 
You are correct it is not much of a source and is not supported by surviving originals. One issue here seems to be whether you want the absolute fastest, bestest, most goodests ignition or a technology similar to what the originals used and the experience hat goes with it, if efficiency is all you want may be you can devise a way you put all the componenents in the same package and contain it in a sealed breech so nothing is lost, you may have to,load it from the rear but that is a minor issue, I have listened to this topic one time to often as modern tech gets the green light over how the originals operated. I am happy you find a small hole satisfys your needs,but the tide is flowing strongly in the other direction of late along with the omission of liners.Many view any slight loss as a gain when the result is experiencing using these guns as they were in the past.Now if you will excuse me I must find another lead box.
 
At that time period, I was shooting 30-35 shots a day. To the consternation of my Miss Elizabeth. Since I have toned it down to each weekend. The rest of the data would just be redundant for what I was attempting to show. When I first got the chronograph, I used it all the time, since I use it rarely. Only when I have something new to try.
I have never claimed to be a target shooter or even a good shot. As a matter of fact I maintain the “World's worst shot.” title.

You are free to believe what you like. The original poster was getting FITP's and a larger touch hole will fix that. If you fear velocity loss, a few more grains of black powder fixes that.

I am only sharing info I have gained and found to work but I am not trying to convince you to use it. I found you can't convince folks that don't want to be. Get yourself a chronograph and “close the book” on my data.
 
:hatsoff:
hanshi said:
The liners come with teeny-tiny touch holes that are basically meant as guides. When I receive a rifle I drill out the TH with a 1/16" drill bit and get complete reliability. I've never had to go larger but the original TH is simply too small to use.
I DID THE SAME WITH MY .50CAL. B.E.L.L. PENNSYLVANIA FLINTLOCK(same as traditions) DRILLED OUT AND CONED THE TOUCH HOLE INCERT. DEEPENED THE PAN/SHOOT 3F IN BARREL AND PAN. USE FLINTS FROM "pelouse" QUALITY ENGLISH FLINTS. SHOOT 60 TO 80 GR.3F WITH .490 RB. NO MORE MISS FIRES.
 
Old Crow, turn off your Cap Lock. When you use all caps, it's considered shouting, there is no need to shout. If you want to make a point, try color instead. :hatsoff:
 
I am including parts of two articles from muzzle blasts just for information.

Bob

Muzzle Blasts Online
February/March 1999 Volume 4, Number 1

Flints, Frizzens and Touch Hole Liners
by Charlie Maggard

When I make a liner, I want a funnel-shaped interior (see the drawing) and not a tube. Think about it: stuff will go into a funnel easier than into a tube. After I drill the diameter hole that I want, I use a cone or "Christmas tree" shaped carbide cutter to shape the internal part of the liner to a funnel shape. After the liner is installed in the barrel, I put a shallow cup in the outside face of the liner with a ball type carbide cutter. With this type of liner I can usually see powder grains in the touch hole after loading the rifle. I don't "pick" the hole before shooting, and flashes in the pan are very rare. The internal shape of the liner appears to create a self cleaning action. The ignition is super fast, and I have not had a liner blow out.

The hole in a percussion nipple runs between .020 and .030 in diameter, depending upon the manufacturer. This size hole is not practical for good ignition in a flintlock. For best results I use a liner with a .062 (1/16th.) hole for my flintlocks in .40 caliber or larger. For .32, .36, and .38 calibers, I like to use a .050 hole in the liner. With the smaller powder charges that are normally used in these small calibers, the .062 hole allows too much jetting of main powder charge out of the touch hole. This causes erratic pressures and affects the accuracy. The lag time between the jetting and ignition of the main charge makes it more difficult to hold through on the target in the offhand position, especially with a flintlock pistol. The smaller hole reduces the pressure loss from the main charge in a smaller caliber. I replace the touch hole liner when the hole gets about .008 larger than the original hole size, or when the accuracy falls off. A good, properly shaped liner should last for about 800 to 1000 shots, and that is a lot of shooting.

The best hole gauge and vent pick that I have found is a set of welding torch tip cleaning wires. These can be bought at any welding supply shop. To check the size of the hole, insert the largest wire that will fit into the hole, and then measure the wire with a dial caliper or micrometer. If the hole is too large, then replace the liner.

Stainless steel and a copper beryllium alloy are the best and most common metals used for touch hole liners today. Even these metals will eventually erode and the hole will enlarge. The pressure of the main charge jetting out the hole is similar to a oxygen acetylene cutting torch in heat and erosion. The larger the volume of the main powder charge, the faster the liner or nipple will "burn" out. In the early days, liners were not used in flintlocks in America. There was only a hole drilled into the soft iron barrel. The soft iron eroded from heat and pressure very fast and really slowed down the ignition. This is where the old FZZZZZZZZZZZ BOOM!! came into being.

In later American and European guns, before alloys and stainless steel, touch holes and nipples were lined with gold or platinum. Even though these metals are soft, they have a very high melting point and are very erosion resistant. No one makes gold or platinum lined nipples or vent liners anymore. These are an unnecessary luxury today.

Muzzle Blasts Online
August/September 1999 Volume 4, Number 4
The Flintlock Revisited

by John Woolfolk

One problem can be the humidity. A rifle that works well in a dry climate may become fussy where it is humid. After you fire, watch the fouling in your pan. Does it start out gray and quickly turn to a shiny obsidian-colored puddle? Under such a condition, a 1/32" flash-hole is just asking for problems. In damp or humid climes, I consider a 1/16" touch-hole to be the minimum. Plus, if you dump your priming into such a mass of shiny, damp goo, it will absorb moisture, and after a short time, it will not burn as rapidly as it should, if it flashes at all. [Editor's note: Under such conditions, you might try priming with FFFg or even FFg; since those granules are larger and graphite-coated, they are less susceptible to minor humidity, and they still flash reliably and quickly.]

Well now, let us suppose that your powder always flashes but you don't always get ignition, even with a full-sized touch hole. It might be the placement of your vent that is the problem. The vent (touch hole, flash hole) should be just about level with the top of the pan. (Or a bit lower if you have one of those locks with a pan that holds about a pint of powder!) If your vent is a bit high, opening your touch hole to 5/64th may take care of the problem, but a better solution is to remove the vent liner and replace it with a liner that has the vent off-center, so that it lines up with the top of the pan. My favorite flinter was converted from percussion to flint, forcing this solution to be used. The vent liner is made from a hardened stainless bolt. It has lasted for thousands of shots. A wire gauge still shows no discernible wear, and my chronograph still reports very little deviation in velocity from shot to shot. (Oh I know, the super-competitive shooters change liners about as often as they do their socks. I'm not arguing with them. I just go by the old axiom, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!")

Often times, the vent-liner itself is the villain. The old-timey rifles simply had a hole bored through the barrel to the powder chamber. How those guys shot well with that arrangement is a mystery. That long touch hole would act as a fuse and slow the ignition terribly. A properly made liner has a hole of about 1/16" to 5/64" in diameter that is only about 1/32 to no more than 1/16th of an inch in depth. Inside of that, the liner cones out to almost the full diameter of the insert. This puts the powder right by the priming charge. Ignition is quick. Some vent liners have touch holes that are a quarter-inch long, or more, before they enter the cone. Not good! Check your vent liner. Most on the market are fine. Some are little more than a bad joke!
 
fishspike said:
Muzzle Blasts Online
August/September 1999 Volume 4, Number 4
The Flintlock Revisited

by John Woolfolk

...The old-timey rifles simply had a hole bored through the barrel to the powder chamber. How those guys shot well with that arrangement is a mystery. That long touch hole would act as a fuse and slow the ignition terribly.
With respect for Mr. Woolfolk, I believe that he has an unstated assumption that the traditional touch-hole would be largely filled with powder, which can indeed produce the fuse effect. If, however, the grain size of the powder in the main charge and the pan, pan cover, and touch-hole geometry are appropriate, and/or one's loading technique maintains a clear touch-hole regardless, then one has just a tunnel with only the limitation of a narrow angle through which the heat from the priming can reach those critical first few grains of the main charge.

Regards,
Joel
 
I'm having a similar problem with my Pedersoli Brown Bess. Good sparks, good flash, no boom.
It's taking about 5-6 flashes in the pan to get it to go off.
I do clean out the bore prior to the first shot with dry patches, and using a vent pick or pipe cleaner seems to have no positive effect.
I think I will drill the hole out a bit bigger, but have one concern:
The touch hole is right at the breech, with a groove in the breech to allow the hot gas in. Any tips for drilling the touch hole, without messing up that groove? There is no vent liner, touch hole is drilled into the barrel.
Chowmi
 
John Woolfolk is a good guy with a lot of experience but I do not believe he has every really tried the original plain hole of proper size approch to flintlock ignition which is quite common these days as the story is that one must have a super high tech liner to get a gun to work, those who have given the original method a try know that this is not true. A plain hole of thne proper size will offer very dependable ignition if all other factors are up to snuff. More and more folks are trying this and finding it to their liking and a plus is it duplicates the experience/equipment of the originals, and please do not attempt to inform me that liners go back a long ways. I am quite familiar with the history of vent liners and their time and place of usage in the past.
 
Dan.How about a tapered touch hole ? Taper to 1/16 of the charge. What are your thoughts ? I know Danny Caywood recommends it. RT
 
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