I think the liner thing is one of those ideas that is based in history but has gone way past what was actually done in the past (like many gadgets we use) I have talked to folks who have handled many originals many of which were not well worn and the holes were much larger than anything we use today and liners were rare, I suspect the large holes were for a reason based on the experience of the times,I would like to try another gun set up thusly just to be a bit closer in touch with the way things were done in the past.I have one round barreled .72 fowler with no liner and a fairly large hole and it goes off very fast. I think we take liners for granted as being the norm when in fact they were not, some well studied gun buffs think that many were installed when re-converting caplocks back to flinters.
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Touch hole size
- Thread starter RJR
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My brown bess has nothing more than a small hole drilled through the side of the barrel.
(I don't have anything to measure it exactly, but I suspect its around 1/16 inch.)
I only owned one muzzleloader with a liner...
The T/C Renagade .54 caliber, I gave the gun to a young man back in 1987, he wanted to start muzzleloading.
He still has, and uses it to this day.
(I don't have anything to measure it exactly, but I suspect its around 1/16 inch.)
I only owned one muzzleloader with a liner...
The T/C Renagade .54 caliber, I gave the gun to a young man back in 1987, he wanted to start muzzleloading.
He still has, and uses it to this day.
TG: I also thing liners were rare in old times. Why would you go thru the drilling & tapping & all of that for a hole ? They could drill the hole, cone it from the inside if they wanted to, breech it & go on.
And I also think by the time a vent was burnt out it would be time for it to be rebarrelled or at least rerifled anyway & they would cut it off & rebreech it & cut the muzzleloff & go on.
Most people don't really relate to the time of use a barrel had in old days. Lots of rust, moisture, etc. I think it was a major job keeping one working at all, let along not having a misfire.
They didn't have the dry houses we have, air cond & central heat, dehumidifiers, rust inhibitors, etc.
They seasoned a barrel because it was the Only way they could keep it useable any length of time at all, not because it made it shoot any better. The seasoning would retard the rust & prolong the use.
And I also think by the time a vent was burnt out it would be time for it to be rebarrelled or at least rerifled anyway & they would cut it off & rebreech it & cut the muzzleloff & go on.
Most people don't really relate to the time of use a barrel had in old days. Lots of rust, moisture, etc. I think it was a major job keeping one working at all, let along not having a misfire.
They didn't have the dry houses we have, air cond & central heat, dehumidifiers, rust inhibitors, etc.
They seasoned a barrel because it was the Only way they could keep it useable any length of time at all, not because it made it shoot any better. The seasoning would retard the rust & prolong the use.
I think the iron barrels of old were much more suitable to the seasoning process as well do to being more porus(sp) than todays steels. I know one builder/student of guns that feels that cutting of the breech and re-breeching and drilling a new hole was more common than installing a liner, we have come to accept the liners as we have the .62 curly maple stocked NW guns and French Fusils and sets of iron furniture to match anything made in brass. I am thinking my next project may be a French fusil, walnut stock, .58 bore, 44" barrel with no liner, just a BIG hole and a polished barrel/furniture....might not be as purty as some but will fit into the history books a little closer(VBG)
TG: And even with that you can counterbore the vent hole from the inside with a little work on a small drill press. When you get ready to do it, let me know & I can show you a way to do so from the breech.
I like guns barrels & metal in the white. I have built several that way & have one like that & they are no problem at all to keep from rusting & in fact are wasier to keep up with the finish than a brown or blue barrel. You skin a brown or blue one you have to match it. On a white barrel you just take a lil 320 or 600 paper & 5 secons later it all matches again.
I like guns barrels & metal in the white. I have built several that way & have one like that & they are no problem at all to keep from rusting & in fact are wasier to keep up with the finish than a brown or blue barrel. You skin a brown or blue one you have to match it. On a white barrel you just take a lil 320 or 600 paper & 5 secons later it all matches again.
Hello, just found this site.
A recent article in either Muzzle loader or Muzzle Blasts recommended opening the touch hole to as large as 1/8" if necessary to get the desired results. I've usually found that a 1/16 or slightly larger was all that I've needed. One .62 Tulle I've opened to about .090 and it works fine at that size. Speeded it up noticably.
I havent tried coning on both sides but like my cone on the inside rather than the outside.
A recent article in either Muzzle loader or Muzzle Blasts recommended opening the touch hole to as large as 1/8" if necessary to get the desired results. I've usually found that a 1/16 or slightly larger was all that I've needed. One .62 Tulle I've opened to about .090 and it works fine at that size. Speeded it up noticably.
I havent tried coning on both sides but like my cone on the inside rather than the outside.
I also read the opinion on liners on the Caywood site. I can see how a liner could blow out but the first thing I thought about was all the caplocks with nipples. The same pressures apply here. Though I have read of a few instances where people claimed theirs blew out, I have never seen it or personally know of anyone it happened to.
I am glad to hear that TC is coming around and starting to make better liners and locks. Lyman has a ways to go yet in that department. I bought a quantity of Lyman liners and tried several techniques including different size holes, up to .08 and coning both inside and outside. What I found was that if the inside was coned as large as possible and the outside was coned to where the screw slot did not block the fire and I had around .030 of straight wall between cones, then the size of the hole really didn't matter. I couldn't tell the difference between a .062 and a .080 size hole.
I don't like the loose fit of the Lyman liner. I have examined them under magnification with an Optical Comparator and find that they all have a sharp rolled burr on top of the threads. This is normal in the machining of stainless, but usually this roll is removed in the deburring process. Judging from the finished product Investarms doesn't indulge in deburring at all. I feel this contributes to a liner that is subject to blowing out and is the weak link in their barrels.
Other than the Lyman quality issue I like liners and for convienience want them on my flintlocks. If you dry ball, or get blocked by a clinker, it is much easier to trickle some powder behind the ball with a removable liner.
I am glad to hear that TC is coming around and starting to make better liners and locks. Lyman has a ways to go yet in that department. I bought a quantity of Lyman liners and tried several techniques including different size holes, up to .08 and coning both inside and outside. What I found was that if the inside was coned as large as possible and the outside was coned to where the screw slot did not block the fire and I had around .030 of straight wall between cones, then the size of the hole really didn't matter. I couldn't tell the difference between a .062 and a .080 size hole.
I don't like the loose fit of the Lyman liner. I have examined them under magnification with an Optical Comparator and find that they all have a sharp rolled burr on top of the threads. This is normal in the machining of stainless, but usually this roll is removed in the deburring process. Judging from the finished product Investarms doesn't indulge in deburring at all. I feel this contributes to a liner that is subject to blowing out and is the weak link in their barrels.
Other than the Lyman quality issue I like liners and for convienience want them on my flintlocks. If you dry ball, or get blocked by a clinker, it is much easier to trickle some powder behind the ball with a removable liner.
Darkhorse, about two months ago, a guy in our club was shooting a used, but new-to-him percussion gun, and the whole bolster blew out....as luck would have it, no one was standing to his right, and no one was injured. We could not find the lost bolster, but the threads in the hole appeared OK...we think it may have been threaded cross-thread...Hank
quote:Originally posted by hank:
The threads in the hole appeared OK...I think it would be best if he had the threads refreshened up with a tap, just in case there may be unseen damaged to the threads.
You never know, you may be that "someone" standing to the right of the bolster next time it's fired.
The threads in the hole appeared OK...I think it would be best if he had the threads refreshened up with a tap, just in case there may be unseen damaged to the threads.
You never know, you may be that "someone" standing to the right of the bolster next time it's fired.
TwoShadows
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Kin I add some fuel to this fire? Huh? Huh? Can I?....ohboy thanks.
Opinions are like noses( awww, u know what I mean)..everybody's got one..well, not everyone I guess ( would make it hard to wear glasses though).
I contend that position of the touch hole is more important than size. When powder can jump through the opening rather than have to burn through it must be much quicker. I find that by looking sideways across the pan and seeing that the entire hole is above pan level that the weapon in question will go much faster than one where the hole is not completely visable. All other factors being equal this works best.This is also a factor when trying to keep the touch hole from being clogged by residue etc.
Opinions are like noses( awww, u know what I mean)..everybody's got one..well, not everyone I guess ( would make it hard to wear glasses though).
I contend that position of the touch hole is more important than size. When powder can jump through the opening rather than have to burn through it must be much quicker. I find that by looking sideways across the pan and seeing that the entire hole is above pan level that the weapon in question will go much faster than one where the hole is not completely visable. All other factors being equal this works best.This is also a factor when trying to keep the touch hole from being clogged by residue etc.
quote:Originally posted by TwoShadows:
Opinions are like noses( awww, u know what I mean)..everybody's got one..well, not everyone I guess ( would make it hard to wear glasses though).I hear that M. Jackson has a whole shoe-box full of noses...
Anyway, where does it state that the touch hole has to be a hole?
What about cutting a virtical slot in a liner just to try it out?
This would get the flash quickly to the main charge, no matter what the level of the priming powder in the pan is...
Make it about a 1/32" wide by 3/16" long, do you think this could be beneficial and worth a try?
If anyone has a extra liner and a small file, they could try this and post the results...
I have nothing with a liner in it, or I would...
Opinions are like noses( awww, u know what I mean)..everybody's got one..well, not everyone I guess ( would make it hard to wear glasses though).I hear that M. Jackson has a whole shoe-box full of noses...
Anyway, where does it state that the touch hole has to be a hole?
What about cutting a virtical slot in a liner just to try it out?
This would get the flash quickly to the main charge, no matter what the level of the priming powder in the pan is...
Make it about a 1/32" wide by 3/16" long, do you think this could be beneficial and worth a try?
If anyone has a extra liner and a small file, they could try this and post the results...
I have nothing with a liner in it, or I would...
When I was much younger I used to squirrel hunt some with an old man who had a touch hole in the barrel so large he would put the quill of a feather in the hole to stop the powder from ozing out when he charged it. That hole had to be 1/8" or 5/64", maybe bigger. In damp weather he'd keep that feather in place till he primed the pan; heck of a deal, never once saw him have a misfire or hangfire.
In my family, we would drill out a TH that had been burnt some and drill a 1/4" hole and fit it with a stainless steel liner; then counter bore the liner from the back side. We'd make the TH about 1/16" and they worked just fine.
Currently I'm still working on my circa 1815 Barnett trade gun. When I drill the TH it will most likely be 1/8" to start with and no liner. If it gives me a fit, I'll open it up and set in on my chickens and geese until I find a feather I like.
In my family, we would drill out a TH that had been burnt some and drill a 1/4" hole and fit it with a stainless steel liner; then counter bore the liner from the back side. We'd make the TH about 1/16" and they worked just fine.
Currently I'm still working on my circa 1815 Barnett trade gun. When I drill the TH it will most likely be 1/8" to start with and no liner. If it gives me a fit, I'll open it up and set in on my chickens and geese until I find a feather I like.
Old thread but there's some good info to be found in teh following article:
http://www.98.net/ibha/flint1.htm
Of course, that's just my opinion and I have been wrong.
http://www.98.net/ibha/flint1.htm
Of course, that's just my opinion and I have been wrong.
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