touch hole liners

[jerrywh]

I agree with you on your point. I contend that most American gunsmiths in the 18th century did not have the tools it took to put in or make a vent liner. I also contend that many of them had vents that were tapered from the inside to carry out the same function as a vent liner. The gunshop at Williamsberg can verify that I think. Check with Gary Brumsfield or Gusler. On of the books on Historical gunmaking technology showed a tool for doing this. So I think it's a mistake to think that all american made 18th century flintlocks had straight vents.

 

[tg]

". So I think it's a mistake to think that all american made 18th century flintlocks had straight vents.'

When I stated that straight vents were the norm I was leaving open the possiblity of an internal cone on some guns depending on the type, and only suugest thast folks might try the old ways before condeming them I would be willing to bet thatmost who say a plain hole does not work are repeating what they have heard and never tried one though I do know some have tried the plain hole but what degree of time/effort went into the trials I cannot know, from my own experience with differeent types./cal. of guns I find it surprising that such horrid results were experienced by some, with the exception of some individuals that I will not get into, anyway it is a simple matter of choice and one needs to try both to know which works best for ones self and guns, and if I have offended anyone I consider it a day not wasted :hatsoff:

 

[smoothy]

I got over-dramatic and wasn't trying to invoke an apology. I'm sure we'd get along just fine and if we met this liner subject would be politely excused from conversation. I don't have much more to add to this post. But most would have to agree that it has been entertaining and good knowledge shared. The original poster is probably sitting back in awe of what he started, although it may have taken a detour and still go on. Before I get too phylosophical let me add one thing...no I better not. :grin:

 

[tg]

"Everybody seems to keep ignoring the fact that the best guns were made in Europe and England And the best of the best had touch whole liners. There was a reason for this. They were more reliable'

I do not think anyone is forgettiong or dodging this fact only trying (in vain at times) to point out that it was a rare practice with the colonial makers or trade guns and is very much a non- authentic item as to general concept and specific style ( modern tech design) in most of todays offerings of 18th and early 19th century flintlocks "replicas", no condemnation to those who use them, just an attempt to put things in perspective as to their use in originals and the reliability issue which most who use a plain hole find to be quite satisfactory as well as getting a step closer to the experience of the past.

 

[George]

And the best of the best had touch whole liners. There was a reason for this. They were more reliable.

I always figured they put in liners of special metals at least partly because they resisted burnout better than iron, and for purposes of decoration. If that wasn't the case, why don't you ever see any made of iron? I have an original barrel with a small iron bushing in the vent but with a plain straight vent drilled through it. Is there some evidence it was done simply because they were more reliable?

Spence

 

[jerrywh]

Yes there is evidence they were more reliable but you must read the book [Great English gun makers- The Manton’s. Patton’s were issued for stuff like this for faster ignition and reliability. The faster ignition was mainly intended for shooting at flying birds. Instead of making an iron insert I suppose it was easier to just tapper the touchhole from the inside. Notice that the paten breach photos had tapered touchholes from the inside. Colonel Hawker also had great book on shooting flintlocks. The touchhole insert was not a one purpose solution. It was for durability as well as reliability. So””gold or platinum used. Those days platinum was very cheap compared to gold and was PROBABLY considered inferior to gold.
It is interesting to note that a few gold liners were not coned but had straight touchholes. This was done when the liner concept was very new.

 

[tg]

"I am not so much as offering an opinion as I am asking "why".

I have heard the theory put forth by many over the years that todays use of liners is directly attributed to the rebirth of MLing in the 20th century when many original guns were re-converted from caplock to flint and many guns had holes that were well worn or possibly just typicaly large for their time but these were not suitable for the new wave of flint shooters so the linere caugth on in a big way and beings it was an item used in the past everyone kind of "winked and grinned" about the authenticity and they became acceptable in any and all flintlocks inspite of history, and for the record when I mention a "plain hole" it is impled that a cone of some sort was likley on the inside with the possible exception of the trade guns, the French and other smoothbore hunting guns like the Fusil de Chase so often called the "Tulle" might well have had this feature as well, with the heavy breech 1 1/4"-1 3/8" in a .58-.62 bore it would seem applicable, there are few originals to study and it may have been an option, as the French often offered a huge list of various options in carving and engraving and degree of polish on their hunting guns.

"This was done when the liner concept was very new.'

Jerry, how early is there period refereence to the concept of vent liners, I wondered if the "set back" method came first or the liner/ bushing practice was earlier, from the beginnig of firearms the problem of the hole burning out and enlarging to the point of being useless would have been an issue.

 

[jerrywh]

The only reference I have found as far as time period goes is very close to 1800 and in England. I have not researched this subject to the extreme but I guess it will be a good project. Manton was an apprentice to John Twig and so was Durrs Egg. I need to go and see it any of Twiggs guns had vent liners. Just going by memory I think some of them did. I was common in England to have guns updated by the ruling class it was a sort of status thing. Gun sports were a real big thing among the royalty and the aristocrat class. Therefore one never knows for sure if they were vented originally or not but there is a lot of historical paper records to investigate like bills for work done etc. A little known fact is this, The English had some Kentucky type rifles made and imported to the colonies. I guess I have about every good book there is on English and European flintlocks and almost the same for American made guns. When I was in my early 20's I made some replacement parts for flintlocks in the Oregon historical museum at Portland. At that time they had about 100 or more on exhibit. Now your lucky if you can even see a photo of one. I think they were all stolen by crooked politicians and other safe keepers.

 

[David W.]

I could be proven wrong, and have been concerning historical facts, but I understand liners were used to repair worn out drilled holes. There was supposed to be an exception on high end English fowlers. The liners were many times made from platinum, so the price for them was on the expensive side.

 

[hoochiepapa]

I haven't read all the posts, so if I'm repeating somebody, forgive me. But isn't it a possiblity that precious metal vents were used because there was no chance of them getting bigger due to rust? I'm sure rust was a problem, given the soft metals of the barrels.

 

[tg]

That late of a date is interesting, as the problem the liners were meanbt to fix goes back a few centuries earlier, perhaps the setback method was the norm untill late in the flintlock period I have heard this theory mentioned several times before it is just more labor intensive but that was not a factor as it is today.

 

[jerrywh]

The folowing information comes from the book Great english gunmakers 1740 to 1790 by W Keith Neal. http://jwh-flintlocks.net/1755-touchholes.jpg
These touchholes were installed to speed up ignition and stop burnout of the touchhole. The fact that almost all references to gold touchholes refers to fowlers or duck hunting guns would indicate to me that the purpose was to speed up ignition for flight shooting.

 

[Fred_Dwyer]

Interesting, I mean the part about "two hundred best french flints." I thought the English flints were the way to go. Now there's documentation of limeys seeking the french flint.

 

[jerrywh]

At that time French flints were considered superior because they are more duable. If you can get real good French flints they still are.
There is also a reference in this book that states John Twigg had emery paper in 1790 and before. Also has several lathes and a drill press. Case hardening and tempering locks was a separate profession.

 

[Dphar]

Bronze comes in many variations
Wikipedia:
Composition

"There are many different bronze alloys but modern bronze is typically 88% copper and 12% tin.[7] Alpha bronze consists of the alpha solid solution of tin in copper. Alpha bronze alloys of 4”“5% tin are used to make coins, springs, turbines and blades. Historical "bronzes" are highly variable in composition, as most metalworkers probably used whatever scrap was to hand; the metal of the 12th century English Gloucester Candlestick is bronze containing a mixture of copper, zinc, tin, lead, nickel, iron, antimony, arsenic with an unusually large amount of silver - between 22.5% in the base and 5.76% in the pan below the candle. The proportions of this mixture may suggest that the candlestick was made from a hoard of old coins. The Benin Bronzes are really brass, and the Romanesque Baptismal font at St Bartholomew's Church, Liège is described as both bronze and brass.

Commercial bronze (90% copper and 10% zinc) and Architectural bronze (57% Copper, 3% Lead, 40% Zinc) are more properly regarded as brass alloys because they contain zinc as the main alloying ingredient. They are commonly used in architectural applications.[8][9]

Bismuth bronze is a bronze alloy with a composition of 52% copper, 30% nickel, 12% zinc, 5% lead, 1% bismuth. It is able to hold a good polish and so is sometimes used in light reflectors and mirrors.[10]

Other bronze alloys include aluminium bronze, phosphor bronze, manganese bronze, bell metal, arsenical bronze, speculum metal and cymbal alloys."

By the late 18th century bronze artillery was made of a alloy that I think contained both Zinc and tin but can't find the info right now. It was a special alloy and I think was similar to today's "Naval Bronze" but again can't find the exact data. Could be similar to C90500.

Might be repeating myself here..
Malleable Platinum was unknown before 1800 so guns with platinum liners are either made or reworked after this date. Once made malleable Platinum was used for a lot of stuff.
Gold was used previous or maybe even iron as a repair. There is a 1760s heavily silver wire inlaid English fowler on another site that has a liner and it's probably gold but the photo leaves room for ? and it might be ferrous? It is a liner as we would think of one on the OUTSIDE. Inside cone or plain?
Rework? Original?
Anybody's guess.
Close examination might show all the "facts" but from a photo?
Dan