TC Renegade upgrade

[Swampman]

http://photobucket.com/albums/y298/Packdog1/Mathew Gillespie/?sc=1

I paid $721.00 for this one. It has a Rice barrel and a Chamber's Late Ketland Lock.

 

[davy]

http://photobucket.com/albums/y298/Packdog1/Mathew%20Gillespie/?sc=1

I paid $721.00 for this one. It has a Rice barrel and a Chamber's Late Ketland Lock.

Nice one Swamper! :grin: I love the simple lines of these guns ... I do wonder about busting the buttstock with no toe or buttplate though ... have seen it done unfortunately.

Davy

 

[Swampman]

The original rifle that Ken Guy copied didn't have a buttplate or toeplate. It was built in the early 1800s by Mathew Gillespie. I've broken a stock with a buttplate and toeplate. I think the grain running properly helps prevent that.

 

[Zonie]

"... Why put a $50.00 saddle on a $5.00 horse? "
________________________________________________

Because a lot of people don't have an extra $700+ laying around to invest in a BP rifle.

A lot of people do have T/C rifles which they can afford to upgrade.
They are not trying to please the PC crowd or those who can afford to put out big bucks. They just want to improve what is a very nice rifle.

The T/C lock, trigger and barrel are all quality parts which will make a very reliable, good shooting rifle. Using the existing trigger guard, butt plate and nose cap will also save the folks $40+ if they like the existing parts.

Some other people just want the experiance of working on their own gun as a precursor to building a more advanced rifle. A T/C rifle will give them the hardware they need to do this.

Almost none of these people are interested in making something to sell for a profit, so the end value of the rifle is the satisfaction of having a gun which was basically made by them, not the money they can make by selling thier gun.

I have restocked a TC and quite frankly, it is one of my favorites for shooting holes in targets even though I do have a few other guns I have built:

As for cutting pockets etc for casting nosecaps, I am having trouble visualizing exactly what is being proposed. I will say that the method of drilling holes thru the stock to allow the cast material to lock itself in place has been used for years and works very well. It does not need screws or any other thing to lock it in place.
To see a gun which had this done refer to the T/C Hawken restock (mentioned above) by using the Forums search engine and entering the word "cerrobend" and "zonie". It will bring up several posts which cover pouring a nosecap.

 

[mikelange]

I'm glad to see someone else put it in plain English: one reason to invest the money in upgrading a T/C, CVA, Lyman, whatever, is that the difference between the cost of that project and buying a "correct" rifle may well be too much for that individual to afford. That was why I built my first rifle, which led me to where I am now -- nothing I could afford was even remotely acceptable, and that was knowing practically zip about what was right and what wasn't. Should I have foregone the paying of a few bills, or just done without a rifle altogether, rather than buy or build something that was considerably less than "PC"?

If anyone's been following my posts, since I first entered this forum, it's no secret that I'm touchy on this issue. I've been told in so many words, by more than one person, that those who are properly "serious" about this pasttime will do, literally, anything they have to, to acquire what is deemed proper equipment. Whether they intend it so or not, those who are this fanatic about it give the distinct impression that they would destroy this thing we all love in order to save it for the purists. We can't afford to take that attitude with people who are genuinely interested in what we do and are eager to join us -- IMHO.

 

[Swampman]

It reminds me of my friend at work. He has about $35.000.00 in his Mitsubishi Mirage. It would probably bring $3000.00 as a trade in. He could have bought a new 2006 Ford Mustang GT and a Harley Sportster, but he built something that I hope will last him the rest of his life. The T/C is a replica of nothing and the quality is so so. I've had several, and have one now. They aren't worth putting any money in to. The stock is actually the best part of the T/C Hawken. It's walnut.

 

[Pork Chop]

Why do you say that the quality of the TC is only so so? Of course they are not fitted as well as a true custom built masterpiece, but they appear to be fine quality to me. Please let me know what I need to look out for on mine so that I can fix it or improve it.

 

[Zonie]

... The T/C is a replica of nothing and the quality is so so. ... It's walnut.

I suspect you didn't look up higher in this post. If you would have you might have seen this California gun:

Although not an exact match, it is interesting to me that it has a number of similarities.

Of course, the butt plate is quite different, but that IMO is due to the fact that this style of buttplate would not sell in todays marketplace. Thompson Center is after all in the business of making money, not recreating historic arms.

As for your friend, I'm sure he likes his car, regardless of it's price or present value.
The same can be said I'm sure, for a number of folks who have modified their T/Cs, Lymans, Traditions and CVAs.

As to the quality of the firearm started with, I have personally seen people outshoot some very expensive guns, so I guess, like it is with all things, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

 

[oomcurt]

Zonie, one other thing I was just wondering about... Now please, I am not in any way dunning custom gun builders with what I am about to say. With T/C and thier warranty work..it is fantastic. How does that stack up against a gun one buys from a custom builder? Also, as you already said...T/C is a fine product...last time I checked I pulled the trigger, the gun went off and the bullet went downrange. Accuracy? Well, lets say it shoots better than I can aim. As far as me personally...I use my gun...I am not interested in museum pieces. Nor do I have an interest in involving myself in living history events. While I do shoot at paper targets as a means of achieving better accuracy and staying in "form" I am not a paper puncher per se. I hunt. My guess is there are lots and lots of folk that enjoy muzzleloading and could care less about being historically accurate.

 

[Swampman]

The locks look bad. The cast engraving really hurts them. The lock metal is soft,grainny, and gritty. If you repace the lock with an L&R, you're past that part. The rifeling is shallow and the twist is only suitable for Maxi-balls. So you're left with a nice small piece of walnut and some furniture that kinda looks like something used on some rifles. At least the Lyman GPR and CVA Mountain Rifle look a little bit like an original plains rifle but they too have gritty locks, shallow rifling and/or improper twist. These guns are great for beginners. They are a lot like Rugers Single Actions, strong and pretty reliable. If you've ever handled a slicked up older Colt then you know where I'm coming from. This isn't about historical accuracy. I like T/Cs and I have one with an unfired Sharon Barrel on it. It's a meat gun. I wish I could bring myself to spend the money on the L&R Lock. Everytime I get the urge, I tell myself to save the money for a worthwhile project.

 

[walruskid1]

My guess is there are lots and lots of folk that enjoy muzzleloading and could care less about being historically accurate.

i realize that we are getting on a new subject but i must agree with this quote. if somebody wants to dress up a t/c, why not? its their cash, they can spend what they want to. why discourage there work? not everybody cares if there rifle is pc. they will still have a good shooting, good looking rifle. guys that are into custom rifles should stop kicking the store bought stuff that 95% of us can afford. cva and t/c got a lot of people into the hobby and some are content to continue to modify and shoot them.

 

[Swampman]

For the price of 10 bolonga sandwiches, you can taste sirloin. Go hungry a few days, it's worth it.

 

[Pork Chop]

The locks look bad. The cast engraving really hurts them. The lock metal is soft,grainny, and gritty...the twist is only suitable for Maxi-balls. At least the Lyman GPR and CVA Mountain Rifle look a little bit like an original plains rifle but they too have gritty locks, shallow rifling and/or improper twist.

Well, I have worked with many firearms over the years (prior military and rifle team in college), but I have no idea what you mean by the metal being gritty. The metal seems fine. The cast engraving, while not as nice and hand cut, looks fine to me. From a purist point of view, I can see your point there. On the barrels, unless I am mistaken, a lot of the original Hawken barrels were 1:48 twist. My CVA had 1:66 twist (older rifle), so it is a prb barrel only. From the photos that were posted, the TC sure looks a lot like the California rifles - not exact, but pretty close. The CVA looks a lot like the Hawken half stocks that I have seen. Again, some differences, but close. I am not bashing, but from what I am reading, you seem to be of the opinion that the rifle must be an exact or near exact replica using custom pieces to be a good rifle. That is not the case for 90+% of the folks out there. If it is for you, more power to you.

I doubt that (short of winning the lottery) I will ever buy a custom rifle. My dealings with folks that buy them has turned me cold on the idea. There is a lot of elitist attitude surrounding them - not all folks, but a number of them. I want a neat old shooter, and that is what I have.

 

[walruskid1]

For the price of 10 bolonga sandwiches, you can taste sirloin. Go hungry a few days, it's worth it.

not if you like bologna.

 

[walruskid1]

my apologies to liver eatin' johnson for getting off topic. i just get a little put out by people that feel if its not up to their standards its manure. i'm done

 

[silverfox]

I to would rather eat for 10 days than starve for nine. The group I shoot with shoot what they can get their hands on from bobcats to $20,000 custom guns. We all like upgrades but some just can't afford them.
Now who really knows what a plains rifle really looked like. We have a few originals to look at but how many more were destroyed and we have no idea what they looked like.
Just my opinion lets stick together and shoot what we like to shoot.
Fox :thumbsup:

 

[Swampman]

A good barrel and lock are the main things you need in a firearm. The T/C has neither. If you replace the barrel and lock, then you have a fair rifle. Add a new stock and some replacement furniture from the Hawken Shop and it's even better. Of course at this point you have $800.00 in it and it's worth $250.00. That was my point. Check out....
[url] http://www.avsia.com/tvm[/url]/

 

[Zonie]

Photo stolen from Bub's post about his T/C.
This was shot at 50 yards with a .50 caliber T/C.

I'm squinting and looking, but except that he needs to adjust his sights for elevation, I can't see much wrong with what that poor T/C lock and poorer T/C barrel is doing.
I guess all of the shots should have gone thru one hole? Come to think about it, they did :grin:, even if the hole is a little over an inch in diameter.

 

[oomcurt]

That is why I like them...as you said..it is a meat gun. Now, I will grant you a yes on that it is not something someone would have seen in the middle of the 19th century. True also there are far better period looking arms out there and yes, some day I would like to own one. But, that is not my over riding concern at this point. To be honest...a rifle, shotgun or pistol is a tool to me, the material correctness is quite a way down on the list. To each thier own. In the past, I have owned several modern centerfire rifles, everything from a .22/250 to a .338 win mag. All were either Winchester, Remington or Ruger guns...off the shelf and all performed well. Same with my renegade. I would have no worries of using it on critters that would bite back. I guess if I were to get a more "correct" looking rifle it would be the GPR, but no way am I going to drop more money than that for something I use to go hunting. My stick floats differently than yours does....nothing wrong with either of our views. It would be a boring world indeed if all thought alike.

 

[taylorh]

Here is an image from The Plains Rifle, featuring what is titled a "Light Hawken Rifle". As you can see it is very much like a T/C Renegade. All one would have to do to make their T/C a little more PC is to remove and replace the adjustable sights with nonadjustable California Sights, and replace the butt with a modestly angleld iron butt. Notice how similar the trigger guard, triggers, and stock are to the Renegade.

That should settle it!
Enjoy your Renegade,
Taylor in Texas
:hatsoff: