TC Renegade 50 cal conical size??

[Hiwallman]

New to the muzzle loading scene. Been shooting black in my sharps rifles for a long time. I’m getting ready to get a mold and sizer dies to shoot a conical/ grease groove bullet out of my TC Renegade 50 cal. I’ll start with SPG lube as I have a few sticks left. I’ll be loading between 70-80 grains 2f Swiss with a 400 grain (30-1 lead alloy) bullet with a wool/felt over powder wad. I’ve seen others have good success shooting these bullets.
Assuming the bore diameter is .500” and groove diameter is .508” in a 1x48 twist barrel what diameter conical/ grease groove bullet should i be looking for?? .500”?, .502”? .506”?? Thanks…..

 

[rmark]

.500, just at bore size, wiping between shots. 30-1 may be too hard to bump up to groove size when fired, 40-1 or softer may be better. The Greenhill formula suggests the 1-48 twist may require a lighter bullet than 400 grains.

You might also check out the modern muzzleloader forum under bullet casting, much discussion on bullet molds and twist rates.

(I casually shoot a Pedersoli Tryon creedmore .451 1-21 twist using .451 bore sized soft scrap lead bullets, about bhn 6 or 80-1 equivalent, wiping between shots.)

 

[longcruise]

For TC 50 cals I use or size to 501 (stock Lee push through). Do measure your actual bore though. I have encountered TC 50's both Hawken and Renegade that varied a bit.

I concur on the alloy. Pure lead for quick and sure bump up if it casts OK in your mold. Greenhill suggests a max length of 3/4" in a 50 1/48 but Greenhill is far from absolute.

I shot the Lee 450 grain 50-70 bullet in my tc Hawken with excellent accuracy. And substantial recoil.

 

[Hiwallman]

For TC 50 cals I use or size to 501 (stock Lee push through). Do measure your actual bore though. I have encountered TC 50's both Hawken and Renegade that varied a bit.

I concur on the alloy. Pure lead for quick and sure bump up if it casts OK in your mold. Greenhill suggests a max length of 3/4" in a 50 1/48 but Greenhill is far from absolute.

I shot the Lee 450 grain 50-70 bullet in my tc Hawken with excellent accuracy. And substantial recoil.

For TC 50 cals I use or size to 501 (stock Lee push through). Do measure your actual bore though. I have encountered TC 50's both Hawken and Renegade that varied a bit.

I concur on the alloy. Pure lead for quick and sure bump up if it casts OK in your mold. Greenhill suggests a max length of 3/4" in a 50 1/48 but Greenhill is far from absolute.

I shot the Lee 450 grain 50-70 bullet in my tc Hawken with excellent accuracy. And substantial recoil.

I measured the bore today with some gage pins. The .501+ pin fit but not the .502- gage pin. It was a fairly loose fit so I’m guessing it’s close to ..5015” - .5018” I’m wondering if I have a Renegade with a worn out muzzle. I have a lathe and CNC milling machine so I’m going to make my own sizing dies and bullet mold to fit. I’ll keep the weight of the bullet around 400 grains. I’ll try the 30-1 alloy first just to see as I have a stash of it. I’ll shoot some PRB just to see if it’s accurate. Should be a fun project.

 

[necchi]

Trouble is, you have already chosen the bullet. You want the rifle to shoot the bullet. Without finding what bullet the rifle wants to shoot.
That is a study of internal ballistics. There are several components involved.
Including your alloy mix.
It's basic "loading", I get that. But square one usually begins with the first step.
While seeking what will work with your rifle is valid, asking how to make your rifle shoot a specific bullet is harder to do.
You have not shared what bullet you intend to use, only that it will be 400grns.
Too what purpose is said 400grn bullet to be used for?

 

[Hiwallman]

I’m looking for an elk hunting bullet. I made a mold that was .840” in length and 410 grains cast out of 30-1 alloy. Similar to what Accurate mold lists as .415I. I made 3 sizing dies to fit my Saeco Lubrisizer they came out to be 501”, .5015”, and . 5018” I’ll use SPG lube since that’s what I’ve always used in my BPCR rifles. I’m going to shoot a few tomorrow just to see how they fly. I’ll use a wool/felt over powder wad as well. If that doesn’t shoot I’ll cut another similar mold around 385grains and try again.

 

[07Kingpin]

Interested to see how they do

 

[flconch53]

Trouble is, you have already chosen the bullet. You want the rifle to shoot the bullet. Without finding what bullet the rifle wants to shoot.
That is a study of internal ballistics. There are several components involved.
Including your alloy mix.
It's basic "loading", I get that. But square one usually begins with the first step.
While seeking what will work with your rifle is valid, asking how to make your rifle shoot a specific bullet is harder to do.
You have not shared what bullet you intend to use, only that it will be 400grns.
Too what purpose is said 400grn bullet to be used for?

This reminds me of "I am going to shoot this because this is what my Buddy shoots". Most of the time it will work fine. But optimum performance? I don't remember what the TC maxiballs weighed but I do know they were pure lead

 

[Hiwallman]

Took the Renegade out yesterday and fired .490 PRB w/ .018 mink oil lubed patch and the 410 grain bullet above with a lubed over powder wad. All with 70 grains Swiss 2F. Results were only fair and Accuracy was similar with both. Nothing to brag about. 3-5 inches at 50 yards. I was not wiping between shots but would run a couple wet patches after a few shots. Going to try a different lube other than SPG next time on the bullet and try .015” lubed patch with the PRB. The bullet shows real promise on the first 3 shots then begins to open up after that. I’ll try running a patch between shots next time as well.

 

[necchi]

Uhm?
Your using a "shotgun" approach.
Within the aspect of our muzzle-loading guns each shot is loaded individually, history proves that they do shoot multiple times each shooting session.
There are several variables with hand loading these guns, some of which you share with us.
You also share that you are a machinist, a mold and die maker.
My point is the struggles you are facing as a machinist making a bullet have been shared here already for decades, patch and lube, paper patching and weight, powder charge and bore condition,, it's all here,, with extensive research.
There is a trusted member that's knocking Antelope at 400yrds with a stock Renegade. Only because of his years of research and development.
How can we help? Instead of re-learning the basics, why not help us, and the industry?

 

[longcruise]

The bullet shows real promise on the first 3 shots then begins to open up after that. I’ll try running a patch between shots next time as well.

You may be experiencing the accuracy wrecking "crud ring". As you shoot each shot adds to a growing crud ring of fouling at the base of the bullet. It seems to effect accuracy after a few shots. It happened to me shooting TC .50 and 370 maxi balls. My accuracy improved when I started wiping g after every shot.

 

[Hiwallman]

Great suggestions and ideas. I may be chasing my tail with this Renegade. I can’t get a patch to come out remotely clean even after soaking in water/dawn mix and giving it a good scrubbing in the sink. I’m getting a rust color patch when I give it a few strokes with WD40 or CLP. I may have a barrel with some pitting or rust. I can detect some roughness against the patch when I listen closely. My .54 TC Hawken must have a nearly mint bore as I get clean patches to come out using the same cleaning / oil routine. I’ll try wiping between shots next time and see if I can avoid the “crud ring” buildup as mentioned above

 

[stikshooter]

New to the muzzle loading scene. Been shooting black in my sharps rifles for a long time. I’m getting ready to get a mold and sizer dies to shoot a conical/ grease groove bullet out of my TC Renegade 50 cal. I’ll start with SPG lube as I have a few sticks left. I’ll be loading between 70-80 grains 2f Swiss with a 400 grain (30-1 lead alloy) bullet with a wool/felt over powder wad. I’ve seen others have good success shooting these bullets.
Assuming the bore diameter is .500” and groove diameter is .508” in a 1x48 twist barrel what diameter conical/ grease groove bullet should i be looking for?? .500”?, .502”? .506”?? Thanks…..

I assume your hunting with this load ,do yourself a favor and use pure save your alloyed stuff for the Sharps I do ! Pure is deadly and accurate and Lewis proved it /Ed

 

[Hiwallman]

I realize pure lead is the proven - preferred alloy. I’d cast a few up with pure lead if I had any. I’ll buy some next week to try. In the meantime I have a stockpile of 30-1 that I’ll be casting with. I watched some of Idaho Lewis videos a while back. He’s an Awesome shot and has his muzzleloaders dialed in.

 

[Bad Karma]

I realize pure lead is the proven - preferred alloy. I’d cast a few up with pure lead if I had any. I’ll buy some next week to try. In the meantime I have a stockpile of 30-1 that I’ll be casting with. I watched some of Idaho Lewis videos a while back. He’s an Awesome shot and has his muzzleloaders dialed in.

30:1 can work as well as pure. Some rifles require it with certain bullets, like the fast twist 40’s and 45’s and long bullets. It is a pretty soft alloy. Personally, I think lube is more critical than the difference between pure lead and 30:1.

 

[Bad Karma]

Took the Renegade out yesterday and fired .490 PRB w/ .018 mink oil lubed patch and the 410 grain bullet above with a lubed over powder wad. All with 70 grains Swiss 2F. Results were only fair and Accuracy was similar with both. Nothing to brag about. 3-5 inches at 50 yards. I was not wiping between shots but would run a couple wet patches after a few shots. Going to try a different lube other than SPG next time on the bullet and try .015” lubed patch with the PRB. The bullet shows real promise on the first 3 shots then begins to open up after that. I’ll try running a patch between shots next time as well.

And… try swabbing the bore between shots. I wouldn’t give up on that bullet quite so quickly. But since you have a few sticks of SPG, why not make a small batch of the lighter, Stihl Synthetic modified lube?

 

[Hiwallman]

Still not much luck on that bullet. I tried swabbing between shots yesterday. Bullet seems loose in the breech area and snug at the muzzle when seated with thumb pressure. I’ll increase the bullet diameter a touch with a different seating die. I picked up some NASA lube from Bullshop to try. The bore seems rough near the breech area. I may switch to my .54 cal Hawken as I know it drives tacks with PRB as seen in the photo. .The .54 cal with PRB (6 shots 50 yards in Orange) and .50 cal Renegade w/ 410 grain conical/ bullet group on left on the white paper.

 

[morehops52]

1. All my T/C's and other rifles that have 1:48 barrels shoot 370 gr Maxi balls very well to excellent.
2. some shoot the heavy Maxi hunters (350?gr) even better, Some don't.
3. I had several rifles of the same caliber. Bought a Renegade and its bore was obviously tighter than all the others.
4. Let the rifle tell you what bullet it likes. All are different.

 

[Hiwallman]

Damn weather in Montana is keeping me from the shooting range. Got rid of the TC .50 cal Renegade with a suspect bore. I’ve got a new .50 cal Renegade and that has a much better bore and I gave it the JB bore paste and 0000 steel wool treatment and it shines like a mirror now. Got a bunch of PRB to try with various patches and patch lubes. Also got a bunch of those .501” 410 grain bullets lubed with the modified NASA lube and Modified SPG lube to shoot (30-1) I mounted a Williams FP Hawken sight on the rifle as well. I’m feeling better about this rifle. I still need to get some pure lead to try. I’m going to get this rifle to shoot. It’s killing me waiting this weather out.