Shotgun question

[davemcg]

I've been reading the Smoothbores On The Frontier article in the B.O.B. IV.
The author was talking about hunters using PRB in double barrel shotguns to bring down Buffalo.
So I'm wondering if any of you shoot roundballs out of you BP shotguns on a regular basis?
How's the accuracy?
Have you ever hunted big game with them, if it's legal to?
Would they be allowed in a smoothbore match at an event?

I'm curious because I'm toying with the idea of getting a smooth bore NW Trade gun perhaps, I like the idea of the versatility of shot or ball but then reading this article got me thinking about just a shotgun.

Thanks!

 

[paulvallandigham]

It would be a rare DB shotgun to day that would shoot PRBs to the same POA for both barrels. For that reason, you don't see people shooting them with PRB at large game. Remember that Buffalo hunting was done on horseback, riding up close to the animals as they ran, where shots were " point and shoot". Often only with one hand.

If you want a gun that can shoot either PRB or shot loads, the NW trade gun is one choice. Fowlers are another. Shotgun barrels for T/C, such as the New Englander is a third. You can occasionally find a good deal on a single barrel shotgun made overseas, but you get what you pay for. Black Powder limits your choices with shot, to a range not much more than 25 yards. PRB, because the barrel is not rifled, fly like a "Knuckle Ball", and are good to 50 yards or so. The weight of the lead balls used in large gauge shotguns, and the light weight of these trade guns, or fowlers limits what you can do with shooting RB in these guns. Its not unusual to find men using 20, 16, 14, and 12 gauge single barrel shotguns, with barrels from 20 inches, up to 60 inches for hunting. There is occasionally a gun with an even larger bore- I have a friend who made his own 8 gauge shotgun-- But most find that the RB out of a 20 or 16 gauge is large enough for any hunting of big game they might choose to do. For hunting small game, a single barrel smoothbore is just fine. Most shots are well under 25 yds, so a bore that is not choked( cylinder bore) is no handicap.

I hope that helps you make your choice. I have both a fowler, in 20 gauge, and a 12 gauge DB shotgun, both cylinder bore. The fowler is flint; the shotgun is percussion. I use the shotgun Strictly for hunting birds, and the occasional rabbit that might be kicked up. The fowler is intended for both hunting deer, and small game. A 325 grain RB in that 20 gauge puts a world of " whomp" on a deer.

 

[bingo1952]

I hope your friend isn't using that 8 gauge on waterfowl. The Feds take a dim view of anything larger than 10 gauge.

 

[paulvallandigham]

No. He is a trap, skeet, and sporting clays shooter.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Certainly, the only deer I've ever taken with a smoothbore was with a 12 gauge percussion side by side. For some unknown reason, perhaps just random chance, I've had several percussion doubles over the years which shot exceptionally well with ball from at least one barrel. Paul is correct in saying the two barrels may not shoot to the same point of impact, but then again they may indeed be pretty close. If not, you can still load ball in the barrel which shoots best and buckshot in the other or use one barrel for the critical first shot and reserve the other for a finishing round. When deer and grouse are both in season I have loaded one barrel with ball and the other with an ounce of #6 shot.
Much is made of the "versatility" of the single fowler but in reality the double beats it by giving one a choice of two different loads, both ready for instant selection by simply pulling the proper trigger. That is no doubt why the ML double shotgun was by far the most common weapon of the immigrants heading west from 1840-1880, until replaced by the breechloading double.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

As an after thought, do be sure to check your local hunting regs, in some places doubles are not permitted for the ML big game seasons.

 

[davemcg]

Paul & Joe,

Thanks for the input, particularly from you Joe, I'm in Colorado as well so it's good to know that it's legal to hunt with them here.
Do you hunt in the ML season, or regular rifle season? I'm sure I could check the regs. but are they legal for elk too?

The idea of PRB in one barrel and shot in the other sounds awesome!

It makes a lot of sense to find which barrel shoots better with PBR, then I suppose once you got used to it it wouldn't be much different than shooting with iron sights (well aside from not having a rear sight) I KNOW my TC shoots high/right so I hold low/left to compensate.

Most of the game I've taken have been within 75 yds. anyway.

What about smoothbore matches at rondy's an' such have you ever done any of those with a shotgun? Are they allowed?

Thanks again,
Dave

 

[paulvallandigham]

Again, you have to check the rules for the shoot. I am in a club that allows only one chamber/barrel to be loaded at a time, so you can use a DB gun in the smoothbore matches, but you can't load both barrels.

 

[dgold]

Paul is correct in saying the two barrels may not shoot to the same point of impact, but then they may indeed be pretty close.

You need to remember that the db is two guns locked together. With mine the only way you can get it to shoot both barrels to the same point is by loading them differently. One side (left) takes 70 gr. 777 and the other 80 of the same.

 

[laufer]

Paul & Joe,

Thanks for the input, particularly from you Joe, I'm in Colorado as well so it's good to know that it's legal to hunt with them here.

check the regulation before loading up!!

...

What about smoothbore matches at rondy's an' such have you ever done any of those with a shotgun? Are they allowed?

yep, at most local events arorund front range there is a special shoot for shotguns.

 

[Zoar]

I hear you! and have been fascinated with double barrel guns for years. 2 years ago I bought a 12 gauge double smooth bore from Italy that is designed for solid projectiles and has express rifle rear and front sights. I load up round ball in it and have shot to 50 yards with very acceptable accuracy, and yes with both barrels. Indeed they did not hit precisely to pint of aim however at 50 yards I am getting left barrel to shoot 2 inches to the right and right barrel shoots two inches to the left. Pretty easy to deal with in the field, albeit I am working on a LOAD that gets me to point of aim with both barrels and the symetry of my current situation leads to believe I can get there soon with the powder amount and/or weight of the round ball. I also own large bore double barrel rifles and they are regulated to very close to point of aim. I agree though, I love the double smoothbore shotgun because it gives you OPTIONS a double rifle can't when it comes to bird shot, large shot, and round balls!

Sometimes after a mountain lion sighting I will walk the woods with one barrel loaded with 000 and one loaded with a big 'ole round ball.

I can't wait for the weather to break and to resume the regulation with round ball loads on this 12 gauge smooth bore! I know I can get to POI with both barrels. I'm close now.

 

[slowpokebr549]

From the sounds of it You already are regulated, just at 100 yards! If they are crossing at 50..... :hmm:

 

[paulvallandigham]

That is because European guns are zeroed at about our 35 yards, or 10 meters. The balls are crossing over each other at 50 yards to strike on the other side! If you re-read the books on the great African hunters, they often talk about waiting until the Elephants, or lions are within 10 meters before they shoot( and often before they can see more than tall grass moving to shoot at!)

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Paul & Joe,

Thanks for the input, particularly from you Joe, I'm in Colorado as well so it's good to know that it's legal to hunt with them here.
Do you hunt in the ML season, or regular rifle season? I'm sure I could check the regs. but are they legal for elk too?

The idea of PRB in one barrel and shot in the other sounds awesome!

It makes a lot of sense to find which barrel shoots better with PBR, then I suppose once you got used to it it wouldn't be much different than shooting with iron sights (well aside from not having a rear sight) I KNOW my TC shoots high/right so I hold low/left to compensate.

Most of the game I've taken have been within 75 yds. anyway.

What about smoothbore matches at rondy's an' such have you ever done any of those with a shotgun? Are they allowed?

Thanks again,
Dave

NO NO WRONG!! Colorado is one of the places you CANNOT hunt big game with a double. They define a legal muzzleloader as being a SINGLE barrel rifle or musket, no doubles nor pistols allowed. It's a shame, I'd sure like to have a Kodiak side by side double rifle but I couldn't use it for the Colorado ML season. You're limited to small game here.
As to rendezvous events, that would be on a case by case basis. Most will probably say "a smoothbore is a smoothbore" but you never know. I'm sure you can use a double for clay bird shoots but something like a mountainman run I should think it would be OK but I'm not in charge.

 

[slowpokebr549]

Ha ha ha, snort, giggle... I just re read my post.Dyslexia is a terrible thing, I am soooo bass ackwards.

 

[CZMark]

That is because European guns are zeroed at about our 35 yards, or 10 meters.

I think you'll find 10 meters is closer to 33 FEET.

 

[davemcg]

What about choked barrels, do ML shotguns have them?

Wouldn't that prohibit PRB shooting?

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Some guns are cylinder bore, some have choke tubes, some have fixed chokes. In any case one can use a ball starter to drive the patched ball down past the choke. I prefer to load a wad column of one hard card and one fiber wad then the patched ball. Thus the wads seal the bore so the patched ball need not be terribly tight.

 

[BillinOregon]

Zoar: Is that Italian double of yours the Pedersoli that comes with sights? I have been intrigued by the concept. I have a pair of .58 Kodiaks.

 

[davemcg]

Thanks Joe,

Although in light of the fact that I couldn't hunt big game with it in CO, during ML season, I may be back to looking for a smoothbore flinter.
Trying to find the "perfect" all around PC weapon on a limited budget is a bit challenging, ya know!