Idaho Ron said:
Well you hare heard form one side of the isle. Here is my side, I use conicals. One of my fast twist Renegade 50’s uses a Hornady 410 grain great plains bullet. This bullet is accurate to sub 1.5” groups at 100 yards in my rifle but is no longer made. I could see the hand writing on the wall and bought 25 boxes of bullets. Then I went to looking for a replacement. My other fast twist renegade 50 shoots a bullet I make my self. It is a Lee C-501-440-RF it comes out at 460 grains. I paper patch this bullet and size it to .501 with a Lee Sizer. This bullet is also VERY accurate sub 2” groups with MANY, and MANY groups under 1.5” but for the average it is sub 2” ALL the time.
Yes PRB will kill deer. Do I use them? NO I don’t care for them but I had a few bad experiences. These experiences lead me to a different way of thinking and now I use conicals. Most of my Hunting is open country Mule deer hunting. In a lot of the areas I hunt cover is less than a foot high but rocks and canyons are used to get closer to game at times. I use Lyman 57 SML peeps and Lyman 17 aml globe sights on all my rifles. While the Hornady was a pretty good bullet the Paper patched Lee bullet is a REAL game stopper. The wide meplat on the front of that bullet is a sniper quality sledgehammer. I have only been using this bullet for about 3 or 4 years and have only seen 3 Mule deer killed with them. I know that three is not a huge number but this bullet just has never been used like this. My son shot a doe with the bullet a couple of years ago. She was hit in the neck and dropped. Not a great test of a bullet, but the shot was at 117 yards. The accuracy was smack on with the load. Last year was my first time with the bullet for hunting.
I shot my buck from just over 100 yards. The bullet tore through the lungs and the buck was done before I could reload. Again a little over 100 yards, and full penetration, well that should be expected for a bullet that is kicking out just under 1400 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards. The next deer killed with this bullet was with a TC White mountain carbine. It is a short barrel fast twist rifle. This rifle also loved this load. My friend John shot his buck I think just over 115 yards. The deer was quartering to him. This was going to be the deer to test the bullet. The bullet hit the shoulder on the joint. It broke the shoulder and joint and exited out the back of the flank next to the hind quarter.
If a guy wants to use conicals use them. Experiment with them and have fun doing it. I know that I trust my load now and that trust makes me a better hunter. Ron
I have seen "bad experiences" with just about anything you can name. 165 gr spire points from a 30-06 hitting a moose rib and turning 45 degrees, bullets turning without hitting a rib. Deer never found after being hit with a 500 gr case RN from HV Ruger #1 45-70. Poor shooting near as I could determine. Took the shot too late in the day. but I was younger and not quite as wise as now.
I shot a deer 2 years ago I never found and apparently the birds did not either, followed for about 300 yards before trail petered out completely. I have not hunted with the rifle since and need to have the scope tested or at least shoot it a bunch to see if I can recreate any problem of that sort. I think the bullet passed across the front of her chest making a flesh wound. I would have called it a perfect shot when the trigger broke. Rest, range was pretty short. Deer apparently did not die.
People I have guided shooting deer and my following them all over a mountain side. Following a deer for 2 miles after a neck shot with a bullet that did not expand properly and just nicked the bone. Wrong shape, alloy too hard
An acquaintance having to shoot a buffalo numerous times with a BP loaded Sharps, used the most accurate load rather than a good killer. Friend hunting the same place killing a cow in two shots with 30% lighter bullet and BP. She was dead on her feet but you shoot till they pile up. Shot a cow elk 4 times 175 yards with a 40-90 with a 385 gr PP FP. Elk just would not fall over. Chest cavity was a real mess. Shot about a 5" group on an elk though. Exit wounds in the meat and fat were 2" in diameter 1/2" plus in the hide. She stood up till she bled out. Swapping ends once but hurt too bad to run off. Would this count as a "problem" I thought it was till I looked at the effect on the elk.
If I quit using every bullet that produced "unfortunate results" at one time or another I would likely have to quit hunting all together. Sometimes things just don't go as planned.
There is no difference in shooting a soft lead bullet from a ML and shooting a similar bullet from a Sharps. Yeah they work and I have shot quite a few critters with them. But there is no magic involved at traditional ML ranges. As the range increases past about 120-150 the bullets really come into their own. If you have the means to used the extra range. I made a swage for a 400 gr PP bullet I used in a 44-90 and it was a real sledgehammer too. Big flatpoint. Shot a Mule Deer doe though the center of the lungs at about 50 yards and she ran about 150 before piling up. Would probably have run as far with a 50 RB. It happens. The only deer it dropped in their tracks were the 2 I neck shot with it. I rebarreled the Shiloh to 40-70 and it killed deer just as well with a lot less lead and powder. Less recoil too. The 44 was a tough one to do load development with with 92 gr of FFg. Now if shooting Buffalo the 44 will outperform the 40 in all probability.
If you had problems with the RB it was likely from using it improperly or just plain bad luck. Some critters just don't lay down and die when they are supposed to. Don't seem to matter what they are shot with.
A friend of mine witnessed a BC Canada moose shot with a 54 round ball at 175 yards. To his amazement the moose piled up in about 20 feet. Lung shot, passed through IIRC or to the far side hide. This well outside what I would consider the ideal use for the projectile but it still worked.
I sat here for several minutes trying to think of failures/problems with the RB and I can't think of one that can't be attributed to shot placement.
There is no magic bullet, all have problems at times. The RB is no different. The difference is that if the RB fails to work the way they want its common to assume it is the projectile since its got poor sectional density. If a 30-06 fails nobody says its deficient, or should not at any rate. Nobody would consider a 325 gr 45 bullet at 2000 fps to be inadequate for deer but 2 for 2 "disappointments" cured me and I would never shoot another animal with what is otherwise an excellent load, power, trajectory, but the bullet will deflect on soft tissue.
I have not the slightest doubt that a 300-400 grain bullet for a 50 caliber with a big flatpoint driven will be very impressive,I use FP bullets in BPCR if I hunt with them. I just don't shoot bullets in MLs, at least not for hunting. I have a rifle with a 48 twist I have been shooting cloth patched picket bullets from. But the nipple erosion is pretty severe, best load in a 40 caliber rifle is 80 gr of FF Swiss with a bullet about .800 long. Needs a platinum lined nipple. I have some platinum. But have not modified a nipple yet.
Recoil, nipple erosion, possible bore obstructions all keep me from using "expansive" bullets in MLs.
People are free to use what ever projectile they want. I started shooting MLs before the "modern conical" arrived on the scene and never saw a reason to use them aside from some testing a now long gone editor talked me into. The choices were more limited then than now only tested one. Still have some bullets on a shelf if I did not remelt them.
Oh yes I built an underhammer rifle once that used a 520 grain GG bullet and 70 gr of FF. But it was a LR target gun made for the "buffler runners" match at Virginia City. Worked fairly well but ate a nipple about every 10 shots. Would shoot fairly well to 1200 yards though, until the hole in the nipple got too big. Only used it one year.
You mean terrain like this :grin:
There is a dead mule deer buck at the base of the hill I am on here.
The doe I shot with the 16 bore was a about 800-1000 yards short of the trees in the distance (these are on private land) on what is apparently a very old wheat field that as reseeded to grass or simply went back to grass when the homesteader left. I understand having to use terrain and I watched a big buck run off about 4 years ago I could have killed with the Mauser. But its about more than killing stuff.
Shooting stuff with the Mauser or the Marlin is just freezer filling. Seldom even take a photo.
I like longrifles and I am fairly good at making them. Owning a short barreled modern ML does not appeal to me. One reason I never bothered with conicals I guess. Almost all I have made are flint. I have not hunted with a percussion rifle in decades. But I do need to put "lollipop" tang sights on a couple of rifles for hunting.
Shoulda went to bed before I started this.
Take Care.
Dan
