post hawkin here

[Swampman]

It was built by a guy name Greg Smith in MI, he built it a couple of years ago to sell, and he couldn't find anyone who did a western persona so it didn't sell. Here are the specs.

58 caliber, 36" Green River Barrel, Davis Lock, Davis Triggers, TOW Kit Carson Hawken parts, brand new and unfired.

I'm very pleased with it.

 

I'd be pleased with it too Swampman! I still can't believe you got that beautful rifle for only $500.00 you thief! What does it weigh? And what's the measurements across the flats? One more question, what are you going to use that cannon for anyway?

 

[Swampman]

I'd guess it probably weighs 9lbs. 1" across the flats. I think it will be a great deer or elk rifle. I'd like to shoot a bison with it.

 

A few more questions for you Swampman. I've never shot a 58 but I'm guessing you'd be talking charges of probably 110 to 120 grains of FFG behind a PRB? Where are you planning on hunting Bison, Arizona? Lastly, do you want to sell it? Ha Ha!!

 

[Swampman]

I always shoot light charges even for hunting. I'm thinking of 70 grains of 3f is where I'll start. For elk or bison, I'd work up the heavist accurate load it would shoot. There are plenty of game farms where you can shoot a bison for a reasonable price. Is it hunting? I'm not sure it is. 1000lbs of meat, a cool skull, and a nice buffalo robe might make me feel better about it.

 

Swampman, I'm not about to get into it with you concerning how you're going to attempt to harvest your Bison. I will attest from personal experience, Buffalo meat is mighty tasty!!

My next question for you. (I sure hope I'm not questioning you to death tonight!). Even using FFFG, 70 grains seems awful light considering the quarry you're hunting. Hell, that's only equivalent to about 85 grains of FFG. I'm not questioning you, you've been doing this much longer than me and you certainly have more experience than me. I'm just trying to get some input, that's all.

 

[Zonie]

I know if I were going to hunt buffalo, I would stoke my rifle up to the max.

The buffalo hunts I'm familure with in Arizona aren't really "hunts", they are shoots.
Range is not a problem so long range accuracy isn't an issue.
Buffalo are big and tough and can take a lot of power to put down even if you don't hit a rib.

Ya..I've read about the old time folks shooting them with a pistol but I've noted that they were riding a horse right beside the animal shooting at point blank range down thru the back into the chest cavity. I also noticed they don't go into details about how quickly they were knocked down.

The modern hunts don't let folks ride up right next to the critter. They just stand back 30-40 yards and fire.

 

[Swampman]

The deer down here might go 100lbs. For bison or elk, I'd try to use at least 100 grains of 3f. I might even load 2 balls for bison. That hurts to even think about. :shocked2:

 

[faw3]

Like I said on other post thats just really great. The one Buff I stopped cold was my first heart attack, the Olds rolled 4 times thru a steel pipe fence and nailed that sucker(with 2 tons of Olds) the one I shot was from 55yds with 120gs of 2f RB 62cal and it was a good hit but he didnt think so and took off , took 2 more to bring him down it was easyer with the Olds but not as much fun. No sh :cursing: with a Olds and it cost me a bunch seems Alstate dont cover hunting with your car?? :shake: :youcrazy: If we cant get lucky like you ,who would you all get to build a 40s Hawken? Thanks a Bunch . Fred :hatsoff:

 

The deer down here might go 100lbs. For bison or elk, I'd try to use at least 100 grains of 3f. I might even load 2 balls for bison. That hurts to even think about. :shocked2:

That load ought to do it in a .58 if you hit him right. A friend of mine uses a .20 gauge Northwest gun and loads it with 70 grs. of FFF behind a .600 ball and does it with one shot. He loads two fusils and takes them both in case he needs another shot. He takes one every year this way. Shoot low behind the foreleg, a buffaloes heart is low in the chest. Some folks aim to high and have a problem on their hands. :grin:
Don

 

[gmww]

I know if I were going to hunt buffalo, I would stoke my rifle up to the max.

The buffalo hunts I'm familure with in Arizona aren't really "hunts", they are shoots.
Range is not a problem so long range accuracy isn't an issue.
Buffalo are big and tough and can take a lot of power to put down even if you don't hit a rib.

Ya..I've read about the old time folks shooting them with a pistol but I've noted that they were riding a horse right beside the animal shooting at point blank range down thru the back into the chest cavity. I also noticed they don't go into details about how quickly they were knocked down.

The modern hunts don't let folks ride up right next to the critter. They just stand back 30-40 yards and fire.

I used a Cabelas Hawkens .54 to kill my 2 year old buffalo. Like you said it's not a hunt it's a shoot. The animals herd up and the difficulting is getting the one you want away from the others so you don't accidently shoot two.

In my kill, I was using the Great Plains bullet. I had to shoot it twice. The hits were 2" apart at approximately 50 yards. One blew out a lung while the other cut the liver in half. Both bullets remained in the animal.

Despite the first good hit, the bull stood there for 10 mins. staring at me. I fired the second shot and it went down. Even then, it took another 10 mins. to expire.

Compare that to my buddy who used a .300 WM with 165 grns. bullet. His bull got knocked off it's feet and died very quickly. Same distance.

 

I always shoot light charges even for hunting. I'm thinking of 70 grains of 3f is where I'll start. For elk or bison, I'd work up the heavist accurate load it would shoot. There are plenty of game farms where you can shoot a bison for a reasonable price. Is it hunting? I'm not sure it is. 1000lbs of meat, a cool skull, and a nice buffalo robe might make me feel better about it.

Lord knows I am not a proponent of heavy charges, but I found that I needed 100 gr ffg behind a .565 ball in my .58 rifle (or ex-rifle, as I traded it off). You might luck out with 70 as an accurate load, but I found the trajectory to be better with a heavier one. In a heavy rifle (mine weighed over 10 lbs) the recoil was not noticeable with 100 grs ffg. It had a 36" Green River barrel and was a nice copy (if I don't say so myself--I made it) of a period Hawken in a Taos Museum. Sorta wish I still had it, but I got a fine flinter in trade....I personally don't like fffg in big bores, but I am in a minority these days. You probably could duplicate my load with 85-90 gr fffg.

 

[Sully]

QUOTE "In my kill, I was using the Great Plains bullet. I had to shoot it twice. The hits were 2" apart at approximately 50 yards. One blew out a lung while the other cut the liver in half. Both bullets remained in the animal.

Despite the first good hit, the bull stood there for 10 mins. staring at me. I fired the second shot and it went down. Even then, it took another 10 mins. to expire.

Compare that to my buddy who used a .300 WM with 165 grns. bullet. His bull got knocked off it's feet and died very quickly. Same distance."

Shot placement was the difference in your shots and your buddies. But why did you wait 10 minutes after the first shot and another 10 minutes after the second shot ?

 

[faw3]

Your lucky to get the meat ect , back in 87 when I lived down in the Keys I went with a guy upstate to shoot one and he got the skull and 100 lbs for 1500 and acourse he got to shoot it stnding 30 yds away. He was poorly pissede off at the whole thing. Just a thouhgt from back then Fred :hatsoff:

 

[gmww]

QUOTE "In my kill, I was using the Great Plains bullet. I had to shoot it twice. The hits were 2" apart at approximately 50 yards. One blew out a lung while the other cut the liver in half. Both bullets remained in the animal.

Despite the first good hit, the bull stood there for 10 mins. staring at me. I fired the second shot and it went down. Even then, it took another 10 mins. to expire.

Compare that to my buddy who used a .300 WM with 165 grns. bullet. His bull got knocked off it's feet and died very quickly. Same distance."

Shot placement was the difference in your shots and your buddies. But why did you wait 10 minutes after the first shot and another 10 minutes after the second shot ?

The first 10 min. wait was because the guide and owner of the property said to wait as it was a good hit. The second 10 mins was becasue the animal was laying on it's side and the other animals were surrounding it and nudging it.

 

[gmww]

Wanted to edit this but was a little late. To clarify, the owner made the decision to wait the second shot. Probably because the other buffalo were mingling around and the hit was right where he said to put it.

The decision to let it lay and die and not take a third shot was both of ours. We did not want it to get up and mingle deep into the herd by approaching it. We also did not want to scare off the herd as my buddy was waiting for my buffalo to expire.

One of the reasons the owner gave for charging a little more for ML vs Modern shoots is because the Buffalo's seem to absorb the ML hits. That's been his experience. Seems to have held up in my single experience as well. He has had them run into the middle of a herd. Whereas the Modern rifle hits more often just drop them with similar hits.

If the animal is down he rather let it lay and bleed out and die. What we were trying to avoid was having it get up and mingle back into the herd. Blood seems to just soak up in the dark thick fur making it difficult to find your wounded animal. He has had this problem in the past therefore he charges a little more for the anticipated problems.

As a general rule I will often wait 15-30 mins. if I shoot an animal that goes into the woods. Been taught that to avoid scaring it further. Let it lay down and die. Saves on the unnecessary tracking and possible loss of the whole animal.

 

[Sully]

Thanks for the reasoning. I was curious and meant no flames. Thanks again.

 

[Swampman]

You guys need to quit the 2f and get some 3f. Most guns are a lot more accurate with small charges. Why waste powder? The ball comes out the other side and keeps going. They are as dead as they can get at that point.

 

[harryo]

The deer down here might go 100lbs. For bison or elk, I'd try to use at least 100 grains of 3f. I might even load 2 balls for bison. That hurts to even think about. :shocked2:

I have shot 120 grains of Ffg Swiss, which would be pretty much equivilent to 120 grains of Goex Fffg, behind a .575 ball in my GM barreled Renegade and it really isn't that bad. You've got 4" more barrel so your rifle is probably a bit heavier and should handle the recoil well.

I'm now working on a fullstock .58cal Hawkin flintlock. It will probably be a bit heavy but should handle heavy loads without excessive recoil. Weight does have it's advantages.

 

Okay Swampman, lay it on me. I've had it ingrained in me from the start that triple F was for revolvers and rifles of 45 cal and below.

All my rifles are either 50 or 54. I realize that due to it's smaller granulation that it will burn faster. I've also noted that a lot of more experienced muzzleoader shooters than myself on this forum seem to be using it. Why?