post hawkin here

Fuller used to say the devil in a Hawken, was the subtlety of the gun, which proved to be very subtle when one tried to duplicate it. In his later years, Bill's failing eyesight forced him into making plain Jane guns along the lines of the Leman trade rifles.

I'd have to agree with Bill on that. The roll of the wrist into the barrel flats and the thinness and the shape of the lock panels on those Hawkens as well as other subtle details are not seen on many copies. And the shape of the lock panels vary on the different periods of Hawken evolution throughout the Hawken era. I think the Hawken is one of the hardest rifles to build. It does take a lot of research and study of the old originals. :hmm:
Don

 

Sorry reddogge but you did leave the door open. Nonetheless, it's a beautful rifle and I commend you on your work!! I'd buy after you fixed the minor problem of coarse!! He He!

 

[faw3]

I never knew so many things changed in them, and you have to know what your looking at to know what the change was, these old Muzz Blast with the parts from Fuller and Baird are really something even the old b/w pics are new to me. I'd never heard of things like the copper platted front sight base, thought it was a replacement on the Ithaca. But no! Please put your Santa Fe on,I've seen pics of 2 sent on pms. Question to guys who built from a block of wood, did you research all the little things on one type or another or make a very close copy ? And sorry I didnt word that right , don't know how to put it :redface: Did you copy one rifle or add a few things ? maybe thats better. Works of art guys works of art. Fred :hatsoff:

 

Herb, you got to stop this with these pictures. I just lost a few wrinkles. I feel as though I'm lookink at some erotic websites!!!

Absolutely beautiful rifles!!

 

[Herb]

To build from the stick, or the barrel-only inletted stock of Rons, I used Track's Hawken plan, and also the Hawken Shop of Oak Harbor, WA. And Baird's books. And asked my friend Neill Fields here, who used to build them for a living at the old Green River Rifle Works, and Dr. Gary White, who owned GRRW. And Herschel House has a good video. There are a lot of sublties, and these resources help you catch them. If you see one original, it may be different from others. Thanks, Flyboy. Here's another I built from Track's parts for friend, Cameron. His first shots ever from a ML, 50 yards from rest. .54 caliber.

 

[Herb]

Here is Cameron's lock. The engraving pattern is from a photo in Baird's book "Sixteen Years In the Hawken Lode" (hope that's right). Also saw such a lock on a Green River Hawken here.

Ron's Hawken was also so engraved, but after browning as he requested. And he wanted a kind of running vine on the barrel, like Lee Robertson did so well. Herewith. Hot beeswax worked into metal after engraving.

 

Now that's a real beauty Herb!! You definately used the right sources in helping you reproduce an accurate repro Hawken. And you're absolutely correct with your statement that one original may not be quite the same as another. Even at their peak production only about 100 rifles were produced in a typical year from the J&S Hawken shop in St. Louis. Also, each of these rifles were hand built. Therefore it would be almost impossible to make exact duplicates of each.

 

[faw3]

So much great stuff on here. I've got 2 things maybe someone can help me with, anyone know how I could find that $3 print of Mountainmen and Hawken rifles, and all the things I've seen on here the last year always talk about 2 or 3 of the same Hawkens and in Muz Blast in the 60s and 70s they must show a dozen still being used ( like Fullers he seemed to have 3 if I read it right) whats happened to all of these? After getting my hands on a Ithaca while trying to get a Santa Fe all I can say is I've picked a hell of a gun to try for my first build. Thanks everyone for the great stuff, I didnt think we would get really great rifles like this. I didnt even want a Hawken that bad till I got the one I lucked into. Now out of 18 rifles it and a 48" underhammer is all im shooting and I've got 2 years to plan on a build. Fred :hatsoff:

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings FW and all,

Like Herb, research, research, and research, yet never enough.

For years now, I have wanted to replicate the Modena Hawken rifle, but have not been able to purchase a pre-cut stock that is even close to the Modena stock.

Finally, got tired of looking for one, and am going with the blank-from-scratch method.

John Baird's book on the Hawken gives several basic dimensions on the Modena rifle, but not nearly enough. However, the front piece page of THE PLAINS RIFLE by the late Charles E. Hanson, Jr. has a good black and white photo of the complete rifle.

With the two books in hand, it was off to the copy shop, and using their largest paper, enlarged sections of the rifle until the copy dimensions matched John Baird's measurements.

With the measurements and sketches from three different trips to Denver over the years to see the actual rifle, I think I now have enough information to do this job. Even got a steel copy of the patch box from MLBS.

This rifle is definately bigger than the typical J&S or S. Hawken rifle, and has those "subtle" differences that distinguish it from other Hawken rifles.

I am now waiting on a proper piece of Walnut from Dunlaps to get started.

The enlarged, cut, and glued together copies have been a big help.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

 

First, I want to thank you all for posting those nice Hawkens rifles! I have only longrifles right now, but retained an early love of the good ol'Hawken. The second scratch rifle I made was a copy of a Hawken in a New Mexico museum in .58. I traded it off 16 years ago and all I have of it is an old photo (nondigital). I miss it, now. It was stocked in plain walnut and sported a heavy Green River oct barrel. Ron Long lock with a Hawken shop hammer, set triggers and pewter nosecap. I thought it looked good, but it did burn ALOT of powder. Maybe I'll find an old photo and scan it....someone out there has it. The top flat is marked MTR for the maker (me).

 

Mr. Hinnant, first of all I am a member of the NMLRA. I find it very interesting on your endeavour to build a repro of the Mariano Modena Hawken Rifle. I'm equally impressed that you actually ventured all the way out to Denver Colorado and visited the Colorado Historical Society to actually view the rifle. My questions to you just out of curiosity are these: The rifle that know sits in the Colorado Historical Society is of .58 caliber. It is purported tha the original rifle was of .50 caliber. What caliber are you going to go with? Are you going to stick with the 34 & 3/4 inch length barrel with a width of 1 & 3/16's across the flats? Are you going to replicate the silver inlay in the cheekpiece? One more Question, are you going to go with the wear plate under the fore arm? Hope you keep all of us Hawken fans posted on the progress of this rifle's making. The best of luck to you!

PS: just wondering what you were using for your lock? Probably be hard to get an A. Meier lock today.

 

[Slenk]

OK Fred I'll throw mine in here . Only makings on it say ( Allen FA MFG.CO-
SANTA FE N.M. 5435 54 CAL

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[url] http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c324/Slenksstuff640/Mvc-101s.jpg[/url]
OK I built this from a kit 25-30 yrs.ago.Walnut stock 1"x32 3/8" to back of Pat. breech barrel. Shoots a .520 round ball and has got it far share of kills on paper and meat . Still shoots as good today as when it was new .I have a friend that has one and I have seen him kill magpies at 75-100 yrds. with it . Heck I can't even see a magpie at 100 yrds.
Slenk

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings Flyboy,

Thank you for the compliments. To begin with, my visits to the home of the Modena rifle was coordinated with other visits along the way, and I have actually been there more than the three times, but did not always have the time for an extended stay.

About the barrel, I actually intend to take advantage of the hook breech feature and use two barrels. One will be a 58 caliber of the correct length to be used for show and hunting should I ever decide to go back to hunting.

The second barrel will be a 50 caliber, 42 inchs long to use for cross stick and "chunk gun" shooting. Believe it or not, a major pain was finding an underrib long enough for a 42 inch barrel. Last year finally, TOW had a limited number of extra long ribs for sale

Both barrels are 1-3/16 inch across the flats.

And yes, I do intend to inlay the oval plate in the cheekpiece, the forearm wear plate, and silver stars around the patch box.

However, my first piority will be to finish up the rifle without all of the extras so I can begin shooting it as soon as possible. With the rifle finished, the extras will be added one-at-a-time over a period of time.

Probably the oval plate will be added first, and I do intend to have some engraving done on it, but have not decided exactlly what.

The Meier Lock will be more of a problem. It appears it will be necessary to make a new lock plate from a tracing of the Meiers lock and use the parts from another lock to finish it up.

That is one of the benefits of having the full size enlarged copies of the rifle. Tracings can be made of different parts.

Since the Meier lock is larger than most othe locks, I also have the option of using an L&R lock immediately, and then later replacing it with the Meier lock.

This is a long term project, but I do not want to spend two to four years building it before I can get to shoot it. Been down that road already. My pet of pets started in 1971 still lacks a few details, but did get to start shooting it in 1976.

Do not intend to wait five years to start shooting this one. Actually hope to have this one ready for the TMLRA CHAMPIONSHIPS in June, 2006.

Think I have covered everthing you ask about. OH yes, I too, am a NMLRA Member. Life Member since 1981.

The MUZZLE BLAST magazine had an super excellant four part series on building a Hawken last year (2005) with a lot of good solid information and building tips. Anybody wanting to build a Hawken or any other ML rifle should get copies of the four magazines, and then join the NMLRA so you do not miss this kind of information.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

 

John, that sounds like one awesome rifle! Thanks for your reply by the way. I find it rather odd but interesting in that you're having two different barrels of different calibers made. As far as the lock is concerned, you mentioned using the L&R until you could find a replacement to fit the specs of the Meier. What about using Ron Longs lock that was used by the GRRW? I want to see somepics of this rifle as it comes along!!

 

[reddogge]

Good luck on the Modena rifle. I have Baird's book and always liked that rifle. Very unusual. Two years ago I got to see in the flesh the "Carson-Beale" Hawken at the MD Arms Collectors Show. I have a 7 page write up on this rifle handed out by the owner full of nice detailed photos. Too bad it won't reproduce on here.

 

[faw3]

Flyboy if you had been on here long you would of known not to ask. John dont half-as..nothing in building or shooting ( ck out the pics of his 50 lb baby on" benchrifle "about 3 or 4 "pages back on here. As if you didn't have enough to beat us over the head with John :grin: now your going to show up with a new one!( I hear the ghost of Brady past) At least I'll be walking or dead by then none of which will help my shooting. Tell you what I'll join the NRA this wk just so I can feel your not bitchen at me. Thanks Slink doesnt seem to be a lot of difference maybe the wood behind the lock to me it looks closer than the Navy does. Thanks again to everyone showing up here. Fred :hatsoff:

 

Sorry Fred, did'nt mean to ruffle anyones feathers.

Jeff

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings Flyboy,

The reason(s) for a two barrel rifle is really very simple.

First, just lazy. Do not want to build two seperate rifles.

Second, I VERY DEFINATELY do not want to shoot a 58 caliber hunting weight rifle in competition all day. Even with a reduced powder charge, you cannot reduce the weight of the ball.

Now, Fred, you should not be so hard on new-comers. They will learn soon enough just how stubbon, opinionated, and just generally all-a-round cussiness, I am.

Besides, it is about time you joined the NRA.

NEXT!

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

P.S. Despite my "boo-boo" about "Roundball's Behaviour" and the opinion of others, I really do have a sense of humor. Sometimes, it was the only thing that sustained me through some of those 37 years of teaching.

JLH

 

Hi John, thanks for the reply. I now understand your reason for two barrels for the same rifle. I can also relate with you on the .58 . Weighing in at a whopping 138 pounds I'm certainly not in favor of spending any substantial time at the bench target practicing with a .58 cal. By the way, what are you going to use that for anyway?

P.S.: Who's testier, you or Fred?

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings Flyboy,

I do not have a good reason for wanting a 58 caliber; 58 has always intrigued me, but has 62. I am also giving thought to fiting up a 62 caliber barrel. For whatever reason, for some years now, the big bore round ball muzzle loaders have attracted my attention.

I plan to test the .575 and .570 ball, cast and swaged Speer with Goex 2FF Black Powder, and my favorite patching material, both Teflon coated and Young Country Lube 103 lubed.

I have had a long time desire to take a really big (400 lb. plus) wild hog, and figure the 58 would be good hog medicine. Wild hogs are the only thing I have any ambition to hunt any more.

Over the years back, quite a few have fallen to my old faithful 270 Winchester, but wild hogs have eluded my muzzle loading ventures afield.

About that P.S., the Forum held a contest on that very subject. Fred and I were the only ones nominated. It would have been a tie, except for the fact that I am better looking (even better looking than Davy and Rabbit03 put together)

I got so many penalty points for my good looks, Fred won in a landslide

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.