i went to the range today with my new cabelas david pedersoli kentucky. i was able to get sub 2inch groups at 50yards rested.using 60g of 3f 490 ball .oio patch. should i expect better. by the way i put about 20 shots thru it before i had any flint problems at all. then all i had to do was a little napping.
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just how accurate should a 1in48 twist be
- Thread starter pghhinter
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If I recall right, (often recall wrong) the English ML rifles of the flintlock era were superbly accurate, and they utilized a faster twist than American ones.
I read once trappers of the western fur trade did not care for the English rifles, for one could not use heavy charges and be assured they would hit the mark. But, power is not the same as accuracy.
I read once trappers of the western fur trade did not care for the English rifles, for one could not use heavy charges and be assured they would hit the mark. But, power is not the same as accuracy.
I have a lyman trade rifle with a 1 in 48 twist and it likes lite charges for target work.I was told the faster twist barrels dont need heavy charges to be accurate and i dont like wasteing powder if i dont need to.
Landngroove
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Like roundball I also use a .018" patch, when shooting a PRB. I get excellent accuracy from all my 1 in 48" twist muzzleloaders, with this patch/ball combo. I have quite a few of 1 in 48" twist muzzleloaders, mostly Thompson/Center, and one Lyman, and shoot them regularly, and would not hesitate to hunt with them, with a PRB. I would reccomend a 1 in 48" twist to anyone who wants to shoot a PRB, or aquire another myself. :blah:Swampman said:
This advise goes against everything you'll ever read, and everything I've seen and tried in 30 years. Maybe they are right. Personally I'm through trying to defeat common knowledge and personal experience. I'll stick with what works for me, and everyone else I know. With plastic insulators, the 1 in 48 barrels make nice electric fence post.
LG, noticing your quote box, IMO, you're wasting your time introducing facts into the equation...they just confuse some people.Landngroove said:
Everyone who has actual hands on experience in properly cleaning, lubing, loading, and shooting PRB's in 1:48" twist barrels knows they shoot into a single ragged hole at 50yds from the bench all day long.
This other misinformation that's constantly being repeated ad naseum in spite of facts to the contrary, makes it 100% clear that it's being done pure and simply to provoke controversy...just flip on the ignore switch.
:thumbsup:
Landngroove
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You are right. This misinformation can't be for real! :grin:roundball said:
Pittsburghunter
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1:48 twist rifles I own and have shot less than 2" groups over 50yds
1- $54 CVA Bobcat bought last winter at Wally World.
2- Traditions .32cal Crockett.
3- CVA Missorri rifle .50cal. ( My first m/l)
4- Renegade caplock .50 cal.
5- Norinco inline (no kidding it has a 1:48 twist and the manual says roundball only)
I can't add my new Renegade flint because the best groups I have got out of it are sub 3" at 70 yards.
I got to get me some better rifles :rotf:
1- $54 CVA Bobcat bought last winter at Wally World.
2- Traditions .32cal Crockett.
3- CVA Missorri rifle .50cal. ( My first m/l)
4- Renegade caplock .50 cal.
5- Norinco inline (no kidding it has a 1:48 twist and the manual says roundball only)
I can't add my new Renegade flint because the best groups I have got out of it are sub 3" at 70 yards.
I got to get me some better rifles :rotf:
Pittsburghunter
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Let's be fair here. Swampman have you ever owned and shot a 1:48 with roundball? If you have did you give it a fair shot?
I find it odd that you are so against this twist and it has been sold for over 160 years as the best multi use gun barrel. I know it was the end of the roundball era when they came out but not really.
I find it odd that you are so against this twist and it has been sold for over 160 years as the best multi use gun barrel. I know it was the end of the roundball era when they came out but not really.
This is a 50 yard OFFHAND(!) target I fired with my dumb little .50 cal 1:48", 26" barrel T/C New Englander I assembled from a kit (my favorite percussion rifle). Honestly, if I could duplicate this with my 1:66" custom flinter I'd be a happy, happy man. It will shoot this way from a kneeling or sitting position any time I ask. I haven't used a proper table "rest" in better than 15 years.
You'll never hear me badmouth the 1:48" twist, provided you take the time to find the load that works in your rifle. This is 84 gr FFg and works perfectly well on deer. Anything much heavier is all over the target. My .54 cal 1:48 Renegade seems to shoot well with anything on out to 100 yards, and for many years was my primary squirrel rifle with 42 gr FFg.
Guest
FWIW - original Hawken (and H & C) rifles were 48" twist - to see how accurate one those could be see chapter 7 in Hawken Rifles the Mountain Man's Choice. 20 rounds were fired 5 rounds each of 70 grns, 90 grns, 110 grns, and 130 grns - all 20 shots grouped into 2.5" at 50 yards. The rifle used was jug choked and coned..........
My own J & S Hawken copy that I used for several years was a 48" twist and I took home a lot of bacon with that rifle gun....
My own J & S Hawken copy that I used for several years was a 48" twist and I took home a lot of bacon with that rifle gun....
MikeChapin
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Just my two cents worth and it's worth exactly that.
I am talking around 1 in 48" twist barrels for .45 and above. I have seen too many of these rifles win too many shoots to dismiss them as a bad twist for round ball.
I think the bad rap these barrels get comes mainly from inexperience. Many of these rifles, TCs and Cabellas Hawkens, are bought by first timers as a first kit or off the shelf. When they shoot them they just throw in what seems like a nice load, some off the shelf patches and a some round ball. The person then has trouble grouping and someone else tells them the barrels were only made for conicals.
I had a .54 TC flinter years ago that I got in a trade. After much fiddling with patch load combination I got it to shoot a 1" to 1 1/2" group at 50 yards with about 50 grains of GOEX 3F. If I deviated much off that load the groups would blow up to 2 1/2 to 3". When I was going for a 100 yard load, I had to go up to about 100 grains to find the second sweet spot. It would consistantly lay them into 2 1/2 to 3" off the bench with that load. Much deviation off that load would blow up the group.
I know this was only one rifle but I did find from that experience that the faster twist barrel was more cranky as to load and patch combination than a slower twist. Once the proper combination was found it would come right in like any other RB rifle. The longer twist rifles also have their sweet spots but seem to be a little more forgiving when deviating from those loads.
I ended up trading the rifle off because it had the same problems for me that most off the shelf rifles have for me. The pull was too short and not enough drop in the stock.
I am talking around 1 in 48" twist barrels for .45 and above. I have seen too many of these rifles win too many shoots to dismiss them as a bad twist for round ball.
I think the bad rap these barrels get comes mainly from inexperience. Many of these rifles, TCs and Cabellas Hawkens, are bought by first timers as a first kit or off the shelf. When they shoot them they just throw in what seems like a nice load, some off the shelf patches and a some round ball. The person then has trouble grouping and someone else tells them the barrels were only made for conicals.
I had a .54 TC flinter years ago that I got in a trade. After much fiddling with patch load combination I got it to shoot a 1" to 1 1/2" group at 50 yards with about 50 grains of GOEX 3F. If I deviated much off that load the groups would blow up to 2 1/2 to 3". When I was going for a 100 yard load, I had to go up to about 100 grains to find the second sweet spot. It would consistantly lay them into 2 1/2 to 3" off the bench with that load. Much deviation off that load would blow up the group.
I know this was only one rifle but I did find from that experience that the faster twist barrel was more cranky as to load and patch combination than a slower twist. Once the proper combination was found it would come right in like any other RB rifle. The longer twist rifles also have their sweet spots but seem to be a little more forgiving when deviating from those loads.
I ended up trading the rifle off because it had the same problems for me that most off the shelf rifles have for me. The pull was too short and not enough drop in the stock.
Mike2005 said:
You're indeed a wise man...as everyone knows, they shoot PRB's fine...I think some people just repeat old wives tales without solid first hand understanding of muzzleloaders and load development, then in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary won't change there position even though they know they're wrong, in some hoped for chance to save face or something.
:shake:
So you're 100% correct, 1:48' are very accurate with PRB's...if I could only have one rifled muzzleloader living where I live, it would be a .45cal with 1:48" twist...mine drives tacks with both 128grn RB's and 255grn Maxi-Hunters...would cover a broad range of range work, plinking, small game, large game, etc.
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The only thing that I could think of to add to Mike2005's outstanding post, is that you guys who are building kits or don't mind refinishing your stock (T/C's anyway), you'll find the cheekpiece is slightly convex :hmm: . You can wack that off(make it flat) or make it slightly concave, that can sometimes make all the difference or at least make it bearable.. :v
The 1:48 twist was likely adapted when the Hawken shop was greatly influenced by English half stock sporting rifles passing through St. Louis. IMHO, the familiar Hawken bears too great a resemblance to English rifles of the era for just mere coincidence to play a factor.
I, along with others, was all into the mountain man Hawken craze few decades back. But, history does not bear out it was the mountain men's choice. Records indicate only about 1,000 rifles issued from the Hawken shop from 1818-1840. that some were used by the fur trappers, no doubt, but not all of them by any means. The Hawken got it's contemporaneous reputation from 1840 onward, during the age of organized western exploration and the great western migrations over the Oregon trail and California gold rush.
Jeremiah Johnson carried one. yes he did, but he was by no means a mountain man of the fur trade era, a Mexican war veteran, he never even showed up until ten years after the fur trade had died. Kit Carson carried a Hawken, yep, I think he also purchased the S. Hawken in the mid 1850's & carried said Hawken into the 1860's.
I, along with others, was all into the mountain man Hawken craze few decades back. But, history does not bear out it was the mountain men's choice. Records indicate only about 1,000 rifles issued from the Hawken shop from 1818-1840. that some were used by the fur trappers, no doubt, but not all of them by any means. The Hawken got it's contemporaneous reputation from 1840 onward, during the age of organized western exploration and the great western migrations over the Oregon trail and California gold rush.
Jeremiah Johnson carried one. yes he did, but he was by no means a mountain man of the fur trade era, a Mexican war veteran, he never even showed up until ten years after the fur trade had died. Kit Carson carried a Hawken, yep, I think he also purchased the S. Hawken in the mid 1850's & carried said Hawken into the 1860's.
wjschieber
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The Hawken brothers made their rifles with a 1 in 48 twist not because it was the best twist but because it is what they had. If you follow their whole story they had one machine for making the twist and that was 1 in 48. They like our grandparents and great grandparents made the best of what they had. I have been shooting muzzleloaders since I was 12 years old that’s over 40 years ago. To this day I have not found one that could not be made to shoot accurate enough for hunting if you worked up the right load for it. I have seen shooters with 1 in 70 twist that could not hit a barn door from the inside and others with a 1 in 32 that shot one-hole groups. I have bought many a gun that the owner said would not shoot and used them for years without any problems. People today are into the have it now mind set. Take it out of the box try a few loads and say it is no good never trying anything else. If they are lucky that first load is good if not they buy a new barrel or a new gun to shoot because so and so said it was better. They never spend enough time with it to give it a good chance. In my opinion the best twist for a patched round ball is whatever one I have in my hands at the time. BillGray Wolf said:
