I bought me one!???

[Rink]

Went crazy at the gun show and bought an antique double barrled fowler from some poor widow (or so they told me). It's marked with Lewis and Tomes on the side, lots of scrowl work on all the metal, and damascus barrels. Got a couple of questions: 1) There is a trap door on the bottom of the stock with a small storage area. Any idea what this is for? 2)Damascus barrels appear to be clean and in good shape although one has an extremely slight dent about 2/3 toward the muzzle? I can't find a gunsmith in Dallas that will even take a look at it so I am considering the "Proof" method. Any other advice?

 

[gordy]

I'm not familiar with the names'but the fact that it's damascus would make me tread lightly with shooting it.The trouble with proof firing it, is it could ruin a collectable weapon.black powder residue tends to work it's way into the metal over a long period of time weakening the "welds"in the bbl. structure.It may be fine to shoot with light loads,but it should be examined closely by a person familiar with damascus bbls.As a kid I knew a man that had a damascus double fail.the bbl. unraveled and did considerble damage to his person,never regained the sight in one eye.Now this was a cartrige gun and He thought He dould get away with low velosity smokeless shells,and He did for quite sometime,but the "welds" weakened from the higher preasure of the smokeless shells and let loose with no warning.By the way,did they try to sell the car that she only drove to church on Sunday? Just kidding.I'm sure it's a pretty gun and may give you great pleasure.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Unless you can find someone who can magnaflux & x-ray the barrels, you'd better think in terms of wall hanger. Damascus barrels, as mentioned above, can fail catastrophicly. Basically, they are strips of iron or steel that is heated and hammer forged around a metal mandrel. Any corrosion from any time in the gun's life can eat out between the strips and the result is SURPRISE!! Just be careful. :m2c:

 

[Mike Brooks]

The trap in the butt is for caps.
I've shot damascus barreled double on a regular basis for the past 25 years , both cartridge and muzzleloaders with out a hitch . The one I shoot most often is a flint double barrel made in 1815.
I'm not recommending you shoot yours, but I sure enjoy shooting mine. :winking:

 

[robinghewitt]

I've shot damascus barreled double on a regular basis for the past 25 years

I hardly ever shoot anything else ::

OTOH you can't look under the rib for rot and you don't know if someone's messed with the breeching, so I usually start with one stout load and hold the gun at arms length and angled so the breech plugs would miss my head if they came out. After that I never worry again and I remain unpunctured.

I reckon you are more likely to die in a car wreck on the way to the shoot than from firing an old damascene barrel. It's tough stuff.

Beware pushing all the dents out by driving a close fitting steel ball down the barrel. There may be a dozen more that have been polished out which will show as lumps. Best to use an expanding wedge under the one you can see.

best regards

Squire Robin

 

[rudy parnell]

I just gotta ask ya...which is correct, Damascene or Damascus? My little dictionary places damascene patchwork art...mid eighteenth century and the other goes back to fourteenth century. So where could a novice, like myself, find out more about these old gun barrels. Were the early smoothbores also made this way? By the way, please be careful with them guns....and I know you will. All I've ever heard was to stay clear of them guns. Now I'm beginning to think that some folks just wanted to keep all the good stuff for themselves. Didn't they make'um with rabbit ears too? Guess those guns were for shells [cartridge]. Finally, what kinda load is a heavy load? And why would you try it? Is that so you can plan for your own demise? I would think that you would go with a proper load and stay with it. Well, there I go..thinking again. :hmm: Hope you will shed some light on this and thanks for the report!![get it?] adios

 

[Dave K]

We talk ALLOT about Damascus and twist shotgun barrels over here: http://www.gunshop.com .I know I shoot more Damascus and twist barreled shotguns more than I do fluid steel. Any old gun can be dangerous and certainly not just because of the barrels. This is not a wholesale statement that all old guns are safe to shoot, but be careful and be sure to do a through inspection. I have personally never seen a Damascus barrel fail or that has failed, from other than an obstruction, but like even some fluid steel barrels that I have seen, I am sure it can happen. Should be a nice gun you have, if convinced it is unsafe, please email me to take it off your hands. This thread will probably lead to a heated discussion!

 

[three otters]

If you steadfast on shooting the gun and you cant seem to locate anyone to look over the barrels you might want to consider the following. I shoot skeet competatively and have had sub-gauge tubes (made by Briley)that allow me to shoot 20Ga., 28Ga., and 410Ga. shells in my 12Ga. over and under. These tubes are custom fit to your gun (you send them your barrels)they are made in both aluminum and titanium the latter of the two being more expensive. Unfortunately this would change the present Ga.? to one Ga. smaller, but in the long run you could use the gun safely. With the installed tubes the internal pressures from the burning powder, wad and shot column stays completely within the newly installed tubes and would never touch the existing damascus barrels. You can even have them manufactured so that the ends (muzzle end of course) of the new tubular inserts would accept interchangeable choke tubes (made by Briley) thus making the gun quite adaptable for hunting or target shooting. Last time I priced them, a pair of alum. tubes with fixed chokes ran about $475.00 dollars (kind of pricey) but in the long run that newly aquired gun would be functional rather than just a wall hanger. :m2c:

Wish you the best of luck with your new addition :thumbsup:

 

[robinghewitt]

I just gotta ask ya...which is correct, Damascene or Damascus?

I don't find Damascus in my dictionary because it's a proper noun, a town famous for a strange happenings on the road leading to.

I do find damascene, although damask might be the best word for a barrel. Among various meanings are...

damascene: steel with watered pattern produced in welding.

damask: steel of or as of Damascus, with wavy surface-pattern due to special welding of iron and steel together.

OTOH, my dictionary ain't Webster's :results:

 

[Okwaho]

Damascening also means to inlay precious metals{generally gold}in spots on chiseled iron barrels.This was done frequently on French,Liegeoise, and on other continental European guns and on imported Spanish barrels.It was also done on lock plates with chiseling and gold inlay.There are trade lists from New France{1702} which refer to fusils fin with damascening and the inlay is gold.
Tom Patton

 

[benvenuto]

overuse of the word "Damascus" is one of my pet peeves...
so i hope I don't bore you all (oh dear, barrel making puns)

First there was Damascus the city, and the "Damascus steel" that was traded there. "True" Damascus steel is a special high carbon cruicible steel with trace quantities of vanadium which cause a special crystal pattern to appear if it is worked just so. It actually came from India and "true" damascus is usually called "wootz" steel these days.

The "true" damascus was so highly prized in medieval europe that people started imitating the patterns by "pattern welding" combinations of steel and iron wire and strip together. This technique was developed by the vikings and celts for swords and eventually used in gunbarrels. You really should call them "false" damascus barrels, or "pattern welded" barrels.

To add to the confusion there were barrels which were even "falser" with painted or etched patterns in plain iron or steel barrels.

And of course silver and gold inlay was referred to a s "damascene work" (and the patterns "arabesques") and patterned fabric as "damask" (because the originals were from Damascus the city, not because the patterns of inlay or silk looked like wootz steel)

clear as mud eh?

and as for quality, well you find good and bad in 'pattern welded" and fluid steel barrels. I worked on a set of cast steel barrels recently and was a bit allarmed to find some pinhole type pitting in the breech.
the gun is now a wall hanger
if in doubt, get the barrels tested. X ray, magnafux, or dye penetration test

 

[Mike Brooks]

I've owned 40 some odd damascus barreled double barreled guns. Flint, percusion, and cartridge. Everything that looked damascus , was. I've never owned a "fake" damascus barrel.

 

[robinghewitt]

I've never owned a "fake" damascus barrel.

Bob Spencer has a fake damascus double barreled shotgun by Colt.

It is an amazing thing, excellent drooling material :thumbsup:

 

[Rink]

Wow - what a great discussion. Still haven't found a gunsmith that will fully check out the barrels so I am taking a bit of advice from everyone. I will let you know how the first careful shot is, along with the 5 or 6 after. All of these are planned with a secured gun and a string tied to the triggers. I have checked and rechecked the barrels for pits, holes, cracks, and gremlins but they look ready for action. Just in case, I am planning on videotaping the whole thing as I have always been warned about Damascus (sp?) barrels so now I may have proof. If all works out, the gun will get a big workout this fall pheasant hunting in South Dakota.

Wish me luck!

 

[big D]

When you find someone to look at those barrels, please post. I have the same problem. (To shoot or not to shoot that is the question.)

 

Have you thought of having them x-rayed. A lady I know is employed x-raying high pressure steam pipes used in nuclear power plants. But there are businesses that do Industrial x-raying for structual integrity. In Massachusetts, it is required that cannons be either x-rayed or magnafluxed before being put into service.

Just :m2c:

 

[gordy]

I too have seen a "Fake"damascus pattern on an old double cartridge gun.It was very hard to tell from the real pattern.The gun had been carried for many years and the "pattern" had worn off from being carried in the same position of the hand.I'm not certain,but wasn't there a short time period when the "fake"damascus were fairley common?

 

[Mike Brooks]

I've had old doubles that the damascus pattern "wore off" in a high wear area. Odd thing is when these barrels were rebrowned the damascus pattern reapeared.....
There was at time in the early 1900's during the transition from damascus to steel that these were faked in this country. I've read it in print, just never personally been aware I've ever seen one.
folks back then thought the damascus was far superior to the steel of the early steel barreled guns.....sure looks nicer in my opinion...

 

[Dave K]

At one time Damascus barrels were far superior to fluid steel. Fluid steel was a cost cutting effort to avoid the labor intense process of making these Damascus barrels. Sell the public a cheaper to make product and the same price equals more profit. I personally have never seen a faked old barrel myself, but I am sure they exist because it would have been an attempt to market cheap fluid steel barrels to a market that thought they were Damascus. Yes, the pattern on even true Damascus will become shiney at high wear points, but hit them with a light acid that will allow the area to rust and you will see the pattern as the steel and iron rust at different rates showing the Damascus pattern.

 

Damascus or pattern welded steel has nothing to do with the city of Damascus. It was originally a method of controlling the carbon content in the iron and only later became a decorative process. The process has been known since ancient times. Each cycle of heating, folding over and forge welding into a thicker bar, reduced the carbon and impurities content by a fraction of a percent. A gun barrel of seven or eight pounds started out as a fifty pound bar.

Wootz steel was an extremely high quality steel that came from India not Damascus. The decorative patterns on wootz swords were made by drilling or punching holes into a wootz bar and having the hole fill in as the blade was forged to shape.