How much does a grain of powder weigh?

[In Over My Head]

There 'may' be an ersatz standard behind the volume of 'grain equivalent' measures. But it can never be expected to hit the weight exactly of different brands, granulations and lots of powder.

Converting:

1 c.c. = 15.43 "grains volume"
1 c.c. = .061023744 cubic inch
15.43 "grains volume" = .06123744 cubic inch
1 "grain volume" = .003955 cubic inch

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...d/209570/post/448580/hl//fromsearch/1/#448580

 

[tenngun]

Or one aspirin weighs five grains, so you make a balance scale till your powder charge weighs as much as fourteen aspirin, or fourteen doses of quinine if you have malaria or restless leg syndrome :haha:

 

[Pete44ru]

Volume measures can vary considerably.

Some years back I gathered up all my powder measures (5) and carefully measured the volume of each when set at 100 grains.

Black powder densities range from 230 grains per cubic inch to 248 grains per cubic inch.

They were really quite close and based on that I decided to pick one measure to use for shooting for a reasonably consistent powder load.

This - I don't fret about different powder measures, as I use a separate (volume) measure for each of my frontstuffers, with a load of Holy Black developed specifically for that gun.

The only "adjustments" I make is when switching to a different brand of BP (I use FFFg in all my guns).

.

 

[Griz44Mag]

I pre-measure all my charges and put them in plastic tubes. It saves a lot of time. The bigger charges don't really vary much when you do it by volume, but the smaller charges, like 15 gr. for a .36 revolver, vary by a large percentage of total powder. Accuracy is not just having patch/ball combinations correct, but the powder charge, which does the work, needs to be consistent, too.

So do you premeasure with a volumetric or a scale? When dropping 15 grain, what is the margin of error for your gun that is acceptable before it changes POI?

 

[mooman76]

Consistency is the key. Even with smokeless most people don't weigh every charge and I'm sure the rounds out of the factory aren't weighed either. You weigh some from the volume device to make sure you are where you want to be and then you move on. I use the Lee dippers and they are surprisingly accurate with a little practice. I check weight a little more often though to make sure I am keeping on track.

 

[RAEDWALD]

Now my brain hurts.

Actually the numbers do not ultimately matter. Once you have determined what is 'enough' for the job a cut down CF cartridge case to take that volume of whatever you use will work fine. Not shaken or tapped and struck off across the top will ensure the same charge each time.

 

[Mr. Troll]

I was using a volumetric measure, then I bought a digital scale. I bought the scale to weigh the balls, but I decided to test some of my premeasured loads, and I found that the 15 gr loads varied in weight from as little as 12.5 to over 16, even though they all looked the same. The 70 gr loads were all really close, but the loads for my .36 Navy's were all over the map. Since I started doing the weighing, the Navy's have really improved.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Griz,


So is powder sold by weight or volume?
Would an unopened "pound" of off weigh the same as an unopened can of 3fff?

Enquirung minds can be a pain”¦

Dutch Schoultz

OK, back to the scale. I have a very sensitive USPS calibrated postage scale, and:
Placed an empty GOEX 2f bottle on the scale and zeroed. Placed a full one on the scale, net is exactly one pound. So That's by weight.

Replicated the effort with a Swiss 3f bottle.
Net is exactly One pound.

I had to dump a full pound of 2f Old Ensford into a Tupperware bowl that had been zeroed on the scale.
Net is exactly one pound.

I repeated with a bottle of Old Ensford 3f.
Net is exactly one pound.

All containers are marked "Net Weight 1 pound" or "Net Weight 16oz"

Conclusion:
Black powder is sold by the pound.
A pound is exactly 7000 grains - BY WEIGHT, not by volume. Powder measures are not accurate devices to do precision loading with. If you want precision, weigh your charges.
For what I do with black powder, a volumetric measure is more than close enough. I have calibrated my sights for specific charges loaded with my adjustable measure. At some point, I will likely get another measure, and will carefully check it before attempting to duplicate my current loads. I can say that the loads I currently shoot are nowhere near the max the guns can handle, so I feel safe in loading the way I do.
This has been an interesting foray into loading black powder. What I thought was so radically different from smokeless, is really not different at all. It's just the lack of brass and a closed breech that makes it different, and fun.

What would be interesting, if anyone has a graduated lab cylinder, would be to dump a pound of each different powders into it and see how much different the brands are from each other, volume wise...

 

[Adui]

I would submit that when dealing with BP charges the only time one should be concerned with weight over volume is if using one of the many substitutes. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) these are almost always lighter than real black when compared by volume. But they are usually equal in power by VOLUME not by weight. So if one weighs a charge of Pyrodex for instance, and one weighs out the same 90 grains that they use of black, they are possibly overcharging the weapon and might could have a surprising and day ruining event.

I haven't weighed the charges but I think I read somewhere here that 70 grains of real black by weight is only 55 grains of Pyrodex using simple math that means pyrodex is only 78% as heavy as real black, so the aforementioned example gives us a charge that is equal to 114 grains of Black.

Now, assuming my math is correct, that's only 4 grains over max for my rifle so more than likely it wouldn't hurt the gun. However, I am quite sure Id notice the difference when I pulled the trigger...

 

[Mr. Troll]

I use APP 3F in my revolvers. The load of "15" gr. weighs exactly 15 gr, 30 gr. weighs 30 gr...when measured by volume. I use T-7 in the rifles. 60 gr. by volume of that, weighs 44 gr. My whole thing is getting the loads as close to exactly the same as I can.

 

[crockett]

When folks say volume measures can vary, what is meant? that one measure with a 90 grain mark may be a different volume than another measure with a 90 grain mark OR... that one measure is unreliable and from pour to pour will throw different volume charges? There is a skill to pouring and striking off a charge. If you are not consistent you can vary the results, for example if you pour and then tap- the powder settles lower in the measure. Still, the fact that most champions at Friendship pour their charges on site speaks well for just doing that. I used to measure all my charges and keep them in tiny speed loaders (I had a 100 home made tubes) but now I just pour.

 

[Grenadier1758]

What mean by stating that volumetric measures vary is the observation that the cavity for the powder varies in diameter. The scribe marks for the various grain levels aren't always accurate. And based on my observations (See my earlier post) measures set to the same mark will actually be set to a different volume.

Make your accuracy development using one measure.

 

[ResearchPress]

The ”˜blood shooters’ whose goal is a five shot one hole at a hundred yards will measure charges on a scale and toss it in a plastic or glass tube. Not a bad idea,but not historical, where the shot could be charged by the powder in ones palm that it took to cover the ball.

Why's weighing out powder charges and placing them in glass phials not historical? Horatio Ross, Captain of the Scottish Team for the Elcho Shield (team of 8 shooting at 800, 900 & 1000 yards) wrote in 1864: "Weigh every charge of powder carefully before going to the rifle range; for, unless you attend to this, your shooting will be irregular" (The Scotsman, 14 April 1864). William Metford also wrote about this in the 19thC in his notes on the management of the muzzle loading match rifle.

I have an original 19thC rifleman's range case that contains a tray for 42 bullets and also has 42 glass phials for powder. Other similar cases were made.

Despite many claims that 'black powder is measured by volume', and as with many aspects of our sport, things are rarely as black & white as that. Long range riflemen weighed powder charges in the 19thC and many routinely do so today.

All volumetric measures do is give a convenient way of delivering a close approximation to the weight. Does it matter whether your 80 grain measure gives you 78, 80 or 82 grains...? In most cases, probably not if whatever it measures is consistent. For hunting and short range shooting volumetric measures may give sufficiently consistent charges for the intended purpose. Push the range out and shoot for score, you want to eliminate as many variables as you can, which is why many long range riflemen (ML & BPCR) will weigh their charges.

David

 

[nhmoose]

Shake the same measure when filling will give different amounts by weight also.
You have to be consistent with a measure to maintain weight consistency.

IMHO with thousands of rounds in bench and cross sticks a volume measure done consistently works and I saw no difference until they become inconsistent by around 3 grains. A super precision modern scale is not need for every throw but if you want to and make you more confident go for it. Your biggest competitor is yourself.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Shake the same measure when filling will give different amounts by weight also.
You have to be consistent with a measure to maintain weight consistency.

Maybe I don't understand what you are saying. If you have a given weight, it would not make any difference if your ground it into powder like flour. The volume would go down, It's still the same weight. It still contains the same amount of energy. Weighing powder insures a repeatable amount of energy, regardless of the volume. That's why we weight smokeless powder, because the granules are not all the same size and in a jug or bottle, the big flakes or cylinders always come to the top when vibrated or shaken.

 

[rodwha]

Unfortunately (or fortunately?) these are almost always lighter than real black when compared by volume. But they are usually equal in power by VOLUME not by weight.

Certainly depends on which black powders and which substitutes one is comparing. Olde Eynsford and Swiss are much more energetic than standard Goex and Schuetzen, and the others by volume and only Triple 7 and Blackhorn 209 can compare, though I’ve seen a couple of results where Pyrodex was also in the same boat. But I’ve also seen many results that were similar to standard Goex, and one in which it gave pathetic results with a huge standard deviation. And it also seems that the higher velocity results were only in handguns and not in rifles.

 

[azmntman]

It's still the same weight. It still contains the same amount of energy. Weighing powder insures a repeatable amount of energy, regardless of the volume.

Yes. Weigh out 70 gr of goex 2f. Now motar it to fine powder. Now put it in yer powder measure and ya got 35 grains (approx?). AND different size grains DO make a difference in velocity. Thats why we are cautioned against using 4ffff in any gun (except maybe a .31 pocket?) Grains is too fine and burns "different" creating more energy.

So if ya take yer flour like goex 2f and load a nice fat huntin charge for bear in her .58, say 120 Grains, below a 600 gr conical yer gonna feel it when ya tough it off :shocked2: Yer powder measure says 120, yer scale says 240. Once I fired 120 under a conical. That was enough for me :shake:

 

[Darkgael]

Weigh out 70 gr of goex 2f. Now motar it to fine powder. Now put it in yer powder measure and ya got 35 grains (approx?).

You are describing volume measurement.
If you weigh 70 grains of powder, it will be 70 grains regardless of its granulation. The volume will change, not the weight.

) Grains is too fine and burns "different" creating more energ

The difference is speed of the burn.
Smaller grains increase the available surface area and that increases the speed of the burn.

 

[nhmoose]

You are not getting that volume does not equal weight.

Sorry I cannot help you understand, Have a good day

 

[azmntman]

Weigh out 70 gr of goex 2f. Now motar it to fine powder. Now put it in yer powder measure and ya got 35 grains (approx?).

You are describing volume measurement.
If you weigh 70 grains of powder, it will be 70 grains regardless of its granulation. The volume will change, not the weight.

) Grains is too fine and burns "different" creating more energ

The difference is speed of the burn.
Smaller grains increase the available surface area and that increases the speed of the burn.

Read it again. I said WEIGH first then pulverize and its not gonna fill yer measure (volume). Before ya pulverize it it will just about fill yer measure (if set at the "weighed" amount)

On the burn....Thats what I was saying though not as correct.

I think the same but in my mind....I say stuff a bit different (can depend on time of day too :haha: )