Hawken Facts

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Morning Dan,

In a sense you might say they were custom made since they were all hand built from scratch, but made to a more or less shop pattern with features that changed over the years.

Some of them had custom features ordered by a specific customer. Kit Carson's Hawken has a shorter than normal LOP. But then again, he was a man of small stature.

Barrel lengths also vary widely. Is this due to a customer's wish? Probably so.

Certain Hawkens, while built to the standard shop pattern had custom features such as patch/cap boxes.

Jake, Sam, and J. P. Gemmer were business people, not hobbist. If a customer wanted something extra and was willing to pay extra, you can bet your bippy that the customer got it. As my Daddy always said, "Money talks, and everything else walks".

The Hawken Shop was not just a one or two man shop. Depending on the work load, a number of people worked in the shop. This accounts for the detail differences found in all Hawken rifles.

I would bet momey that no two Hawken rifles are identical in all details.

Dan, maybe the best way to answer your question is to say that the Hawkens were individual hand made, production rifles, and certain of them had custom ordered extra features.

Best regards and good witha

Merry Christmas and a happy New Year.

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA or NMLRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

Liberal/Socialist Politicians LIE!!! USA Freedoms Die!!!!

 

[Bountyhunter]

I have looked at a lot of books and a lot of museums, and I do not recall seeing a LH original. I have set around the fire at Bents Fort and beat the subject to death, but I find it difficult to think that if you would have walked into Hawkens shop and laid $35 in gold on the counter and asked for a LH rifle that someone would not have busted their hamestrings getting after it. After all, they had all the basic parts, all they had to do was put them together on the other side. Maybe that is an oversimplification, but..had I been there then, I would have asked for a LH. I cant imagine that there were no other LH shooters then.

I am shooting a RH rifle right now, and I had to take a hoof rasp and redesign the stock a bit to keep from knocking the skin off my cheekbones. It would have been real nice to have one with the parts on the other side, but it wasnt an option when I bought this stock.

I have been digging for info on Tryon Rifles and I havent been able to turn much up. I will post a pic of Tryon Trade Rifles soon. May have to take a pic of the page and go from there, scanner is having PMS.

 

[BrownBear]

I am shooting a RH rifle right now, and I had to take a hoof rasp and redesign the stock a bit to keep from knocking the skin off my cheekbones. It would have been real nice to have one with the parts on the other side, but it wasnt an option when I bought this stock.

I'm shooting a GRRW Hawken (58 cal, tapered 36" barrel) built with RH hardware and left hand stock. The big feature for me is that in addition to the LH cheek piece, it's also cast off for a lefty. Without a doubt the most comfortable "Hawken" I've shot. If I build one the first feature is going to be the cast off, followed by the cheek piece. After that, hardware on the correct side is more cosmetic than anything for me. Just not a prob to reach across and cock, and after that pretty much everything else is ambi.

Don't know (and from a user standpoint rather than a historian, don't much care) if such an arrangement is Politically Correct. I'm with you in wishing there was more info about lefties, but shooting comes first for me.

 

[T.C.Albert]

Is it true that the Hawken brothers bought most of their barrels, but made most of their locks?
The Gulcher lock on the Hawken pictured in the "Personal Experience" thread doesnt seem to match the snail just right, but maybe that was indeed perfectly correct and as made from Sam's shop?
TCA

 

[rebel727]

I'm thinkin that during their heyday they bought just about all of it and were more assemblers than builders.

 

[LaBonte]

Is it true that the Hawken brothers bought most of their barrels, but made most of their locks?
The Gulcher lock on the Hawken pictured in the "Personal Experience" thread doesnt seem to match the snail just right, but maybe that was indeed perfectly correct and as made from Sam's shop?
TCA

Nope just the opposite more or less - there are few locks attributed to them but even those could be the "common" hardware locks imported and then stamped by the gun maker - a common practice.
As for barrels there are a few records that they purchased them and a few of their rifles exist with purchased barrels, but the Hawkens ran an iron mongery for some time which made the skelps for welding up barrels.
As to being assemblers - fact is most smaller gunmakers were more or less just that even back in the 18th Century - most locks were imported and barrels were often bought as blanks and then reamed and rifled by the gunmakers.
Even the big companies such as Henry and Tryon purchased locks and barrels, even though in the case of Henry they manufactured both most of the time they were in business. Still records show that Henry imported locks from England as far back as 1815 and that Tryon bought barrels from Henry in the 1840's.

As to things not fitting quite right - the tough part is many of the rifles we see today may not have started out that way - one example is the Modena/Medina rifle, a J & S 1840's era rifle that was later re-barreled by Sam and probably the lock is a replacement as well.

I've been gathering up some pics of various era Hawkens and as soon as I can find the time I'll post them with notes regarding the various distinguishing features - but it may take some time - I'm still real busy in the shop .........
and it's snowing again :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Morning All,

LaBounte is correct about his Hawken information.
I personally have seen a Hawken rifle that had a Reminton barrel. The barrel was breeched with the the Remington name on the bottom flat.

Existing records seem to indicate that whatever commercial barrels were purchased, they were obtained in blank, un-rifled form.

The secret of accuracy in a patched round ball gun is the rifling. It makes sense to me that Jake and Sam would not trust their reputation for accuracy to an outside source. Buying barrel blanks is a good businees move, and still allows the Hawke shop to cut their own style of rifling.

Reminton did a thiving business for years selling rifle barrels, rifled and un-rifled blanks. Many, if not most gunsmiths had their own ideas about rifling for best accuracy.

Not too uncommon among about rifle builders today, is it. What is that old adge, "The more things change, the more they stay the same".

I am told by a friend who has intently studied muzzle loading rifles for fifty plus years, that the lock on the Medina Rifle is a shotgun lock.

This makes since to me. The Medina rifle barrel is 1-3/16" at the breech. This would definately require a lock with a longer hammer throw. Even today, there are percussion locks that work fine on 15/16" or 1" barrels, but do not have a hammer throw long enough for a 1-1/8" barrel.

Speaking of the Medina rifle, I have a question.

Does anybody on the forum know what is the measured butt stock drop on the Medina rifle? I am asking about the measurement from a line off the the top barrel flat to the heel of the steel butt plate.

My measuement taken twenty five ago is 4-3/8" This considerably more that most Hawkens which measure in the 3-1/2" range.

All of the supposed "exact copies" that I have examined, run in the 3-1/2" to 3-3/4" range.

Even one of the so-called "Hawken experts" who is supposed to have intently studied and exactly measured the Medina rifle is unable (or unwilling) to give me a definate answer to this question.

In the meantime, hope that everybody had a great Merry Christmas.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA or NMLRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

Liberal/socialist politicians LIE!!! USA Freedoms DIE!!!!

 

[plmeek]

John, I went to the Colo Historical Museum a year or so back to see the Medina rifle. It was no longer on display. I should have asked about it, but assumed it was on loan or temporarily taken down for some reason as its mountings in the display case were still there.

I finally got an answer to its location this Christmas when I received a set of James Gordon's books "GREAT GUNMAKERS FOR THE EARLY WEST". Pictures of the Medina rifle are included in the book, and to my surprise, the text said it was part of the author's collection. (I can only hope the Colorado taxpayers were adequately compensated for the loss.)

The photos in the books are excellent quality. Using some engineers scales, I estimate that the heel of the buttplate is a little over 4" below the line of the barrel. Your measurement of 4-3/8" is probably correct.

 

[Herb]

I phoned Jim Gordon to buy his books. If I remember right, he told me that he was on the board of directors of the Denver Museum that had the Modena rifle on display. The rifle was in private ownership, and the owner wanted to sell it. Gordon did his best to try to convince the museum director to buy the Modena rifle, even planning to do the fund raising to buy it. She was not interested. Since it was going to be sold and no longer available to the Museum, Gordon bought it. And he will make it available to serious students who want to handle and examine it.

 

[plmeek]

Thanks for that information. I am very impressed with Mr. Gordon's books and appreciate very much his willingness to share his collection with the general public. After seeing pictures of his collection, I hope to visit his museum in Glorieta, NM sometime in the near future.

On the subject of "Hawken Facts", I agree with your comments, Herb, in an earlier posting about Mr. Gordon's books, that anyone wanting to learn as much as possible about the visual characteristics of the Hawken Bros' work should obtain access to these books.

 

[beerman3133]

Great reading, I always learn something new. I know my "Hawken" from TC isn't a real Hawken, but I love it anyway, even if it does have brass furniture.

Dave

 

[musketman]

Great reading, I always learn something new. I know my "Hawken" from TC isn't a real Hawken, but I love it anyway, even if it does have brass furniture.

Dave

From what I heard (and I cannot remember who said it or where I heard it), T/C designed their rifle and someone there said "it looks like a Hawken" and the name stuck...

Mind you, this was back in the 1980's at an Ohio gun show when I first heard that, can't proove one way or the other about if it really happen, but it sounds feasible...

 

[beerman3133]

Mine was built for my Dad in the early 70's, he gave it to me when I retired from the Air Force in 2006, it was in rough shape, but I have got it shooting decent with PRB, and the furniture has much of the tarnish cleaned up, the bore is a work in progress, but it has killed jackrabbits at 75 long paces with PRB, haven't drawn a big game tag for it yet.

Dave

 

[BobKrohn]

Here's an odd question, maybe needs to be a new topic?
I've always wondered when "copies", "reproductions" or outright fakes of Hawken rifles really started. Could it be as far back as, well, when you could buy a real one?

The reason I thought about this is after reading a book about Buffalo Bill I realized how really early the glamorization and exploitation of the Old West started. That wasn't too long after the Civil War that he started. And there were all the dime novels adding to the interest.
There had to be a demand by many to have "authentic relics". There's always people willing to create these things for a quick buck. I remember reading about Jessie James mother having a stockpile of old pistols on hand to sell as "Jessie's personal pistol" to eager tourists.
Makes you wonder how much of the recorded individual behavior and "history" we now have is just life imitating art. I really think that's what got Gen Custer killed, trying to live up to his press.
Even some of the later original Hawken guns may have been for Easterners wanting a souvenir.

Maybe this could account for some variations or anomalies in "old" Hawken rifles?
Thoughts?
Is there anything written about this idea?

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The original Hawken guns were built quite late on the original tooling by Gemmer et al. No real need for fakes. And most Easterners wouldn't have known a Hawken from a hatrack anyway. Most any halfstock would have fooled them--even if they'd actually heard of a Hawken in the first place. :grin:

Bat Masterson is supposed to have kept a drawful old Colts to give to visitors who sucked up to him about his days in the west. Mrs James of course was another example of this. There are a lot of "authentic relics" around that probably never got within 500 miles of their supposed owners. Just as well as they would have likely sufferered hernias and all manner of backtrouble if they'd actually lugged all that iron around. :nono:

I suspect Custer got himself and a lot of very good men killed through a combination of poor intelligence, impulsiveness and arrogance. In that sense he may have lived up to his reputation if not his press. :rotf:

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Evening Mtn Meek,

First my apologies for not promptly thanking you for you help in confirming my measurement on the Medina rifle stock drop.

I do greatly appreciate your help.

Looks like I can now get started on replicating the Medina rifle. It is small details like that are critical to accuracy in reproducing any object.

Again, many thanks for your help.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA or NMLRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

Libera/Socialist Politicians LIE!!! USA FREEDOMS DIE!!!!