Hawken Facts

[Bountyhunter]

Hawken Facts:

There are a multitude of sizes and styles of "Hawken" rifles - almost as varied as the men who carried them Therefore, when we talk about "Hawken” rifles in this catalog we are referring specifically to the "Classic" half stock, iron mounted, big bore, "Plains" rifle. This rifle is steeped in history and linked with the opening of the West; a rugged and manly, yet beautifully graceful piece of working hardware. Now, just what is it that makes a "Classic" Hawken Plains Rifle? The criteria are listed as follows: a bare minimum bore size of .50 caliber (most average .54), patent hooked breech, all iron furniture (including nosecap), hourglass tang, long bar double set triggers with scroll iron guard attached, 2 keys with iron oval escutcheons held to stock by two screws each, copper based German silver blade front sight, and plain maple stock. Variations accepted as original are: one or two piece braised butt-plate, one piece poured pewter, or two piece braised nosecap, flat sided snail of J & S period or S. Hawken full scoop on patent breech, straight breech or slanted, 1 1/8" barrel straight or tapered or 1" straight octagonal barrel, and occasionally fancy wood and patchbox. Other things about Hawken rifles in general which might be of some interest to you are:


A. There is nearly a 1/4" taper from front to rear of the lock plate area side to side.
B. There is usually a very slight belly to the forestock, the buttstock, and the comb to buttplate area.
C. Heel of buttplate always touches ground first when barrel is held vertical to ground. The toe is off the ground from 1/4" to 3/4"
D. The forward sweep of the beaver tail cheek piece forms a continuing line with top edge of flat opposite lockplate, interrupted at wrist, it disappears.
E. Vast majority of stocks are plain maple.
F. Underrib usually affixed to barrel with screws; sometimes filed off and peened flat to under radius.
G. Soft solder half moon fill visible at muzzle end of underrib.
H. Slotted cross keys.

These features are among those most commonly encountered, but as mentioned before not always. One or more may be lacking on a specific rifle since each gun was hand crafted and later alteration may have been undertaken for various reasons--The Hawken Shop website.

These "facts" are attributes of most Hawken rifles. You need to know the Hawken history though as Hawken started out with full stock rifles just before 1830. As popularity grew they began making the more expensive half stock for the mountain and plains use. There are not many records of flintlocks being made by Hawken. A few are known but were not common. The 1830 to 1849 was the J&S Hawken era, which was the classic Hawken rifles (1-1/8" tapered barrel and tapered lock panels on the stock). When Jake died from cholera in 1849, Sam continued with S Hawken rifles from 1850 to the late 1860's. Those rifles were different architecture (Straight 1" barrel and straight lock panels on the stock along with an oval trigger guard) and were lighter rifles than the J&S rifles. So, you see, it depends on what era you wish to accurately represent.

 

[musketman]

Cool facts, here is an older thread started by forum member and former moderator Liver Eatin Johnson and his experience with a real S. Hawken rifle.

A Very Personal Experience

 

[Bountyhunter]

They are just commonly known facts that anyone can put together if you go digging through Baird or Hansons books. They just happened to be assembled by the Hawken Shop people, so I "borrowed" them for the sake of efficiency.

They are merely traits of a Hawken Rifle. My purpose is not to deride any other rifle, only to say that this is what a Hawken is. I do find it somewhat interesting that of all the rifles produced and taken to the frontiers, that Hawken had fewer than most any other maker, but for some reason, they emerged as the "name" to have. Hollyweird contributed to the popularity of the name by using all sorts of rifles in films and referring to them as Hawkens. They happen to be my favorite interest, but not to the point of discriminating against other original makers. Like I mentioned in another thread, the recent rifles from TC and Traditions and others are carbon copies of Tryon Trade Rifles, not Hawken, but copies of 1875 Tryon rifles. So they do seem to be replicas of existing rifles.

On the rifle in the pictures to your link, that S Hawken rifle was made after 1849 when Jake died. Only then were rifles stamped as S Hawken as Sam ran the business alone. The engraving on the Goulcher lock and the Lancaster type patch box seemed to be something that came about when Tristan Campbell went to work for Sam. So, following all the clues, that rifle is probably a late made rifle, certainly a rifle made 1850 or later.

There seems to be no documented rifles by J&S Hawken before 1825, and few before 1830. Also there are few known Hawken flintlocks, those that were documented were fullstocks. Neat things you discover in 20 years of reading and lurking in museums.

 

[LaBonte]

With respect but some of your facts are a bit skewed even when discussing the "Classic" Hawken and may be due to having only read books and looked at them in museums? Have you actually been able to handle/study originals in depth - again no disrespect meant.....and I hope we can all discuss this in a civil manner and learn much....

First off my "credentials" - and no I do not condider myself an expert at all, just a Hawken student with a lot of mileage, but no where near as much as some folks such as Don Stith, who have not only handled many more of the originals but has reconditioned many.
FWIW - I've been studying Hawkens since 1962 when I saw my first one in a magazine article by James Serven - I still have the magazine). I then dug up every bit of info I could of which there wasn't much until 1968 when John Baird published his book on the Hawken. That helped a bunch, but still left a lot of unanswered questions. Later in the 1970's and 1980's I got to study first hand several originals - a dozen or so in total including the Modena/Medina rifle which used to be in Denver and the Bridger Hawken in Montana. I got to examine both J & S, my favorites, and those made by Sam and later by J.P Gemmer. I even got to shoot a few of the originals. During the early 1970's I also got to know John Baird quite well as well as some of the top students/reproduction makers such as T. K Dawson and Phil Sanders. Anyway enough of that.....my comments will be in blue...

Hawken Facts:
There are a multitude of sizes and styles of "Hawken" rifles - almost as varied as the men who carried them.
absolutely true.
Therefore, when we talk about "Hawken” rifles in this catalog we are referring specifically to the "Classic" half stock, iron mounted, big bore, "Plains" rifle. Now, just what is it that makes a "Classic" Hawken Plains Rifle?
The criteria are listed as follows: a bare minimum bore size of .50 caliber (most average .54), patent hooked breech especially amongst J & S built rifles many were not hooked although they were patent breeches, all iron furniture (including nosecap), hourglass tang some were straight tangs - usually when the bolster was braised to the barrel, long bar double set triggers with scroll iron guard attached,NOTE: scroll guards varied considerably in shape, size, and method of manufacture 2 keys with iron oval escutcheons held to stock by two screws eachescutcheons were sometimes made of German Silve or real silver, copper based German silver blade front sight Later Sam Hawken's (of which I include those built by his son William and later by J.P Gemmer), had iron bases as an alternative, and plain maple stock. Variations accepted as original are: one or two piece braised butt-plate,I've only seen/heard of two piece braised buttplates, later butt plates were single piece castings one piece poured pewter, or two piece braised nosecapof the existing Classic Hawkens with pewter nosecaps, they are all replacements - some of their local guns did use cast pewter though, flat sided snail of J & S period or S. Hawken full scoop on patent breech a simplification but there are a few existing J & S period guns with scooped straigh and slant breeches, straight breech or slanted, 1 1/8" barrel straight or tapered or 1" straight octagonal barrel actually barrels varied in size more than that, but most would be between those two sizes with 1 3/16" being the largest (the Modena/Medina rifle is 1 3/16" at the breech). Despite some of John Baird's measurements, every existing Hawken has either a tapered barrel or swamped, and swamped barrels were in fact used by Sam on late period guns such as the Smithsonian and Kennet Hawkens, which are fullstock, but there are several half-stocks with swamped barrels, and occasionally fancy wood and patchbox. Other things about Hawken rifles in general which might be of some interest to you are:

A. There is nearly a 1/4" taper from front to rear of the lock plate area side to side.
Most do but others have no more than 1/8" or are flat
B. There is usually a very slight belly to the forestock, the buttstock, and the comb to buttplate area.The curved comb line is generally a J & S feature - it does not appear on Sam's later guns and on not all J &S guns either (perhaps those built by Sam?)
C. Heel of buttplate always touches ground first when barrel is held vertical to ground. The toe is off the ground from 1/4" to 3/4"
D. The forward sweep of the beaver tail cheek piece forms a continuing line with top edge of flat opposite lockplate, interrupted at wrist, it disappears.Beavertail cheek pieces varied considerably in size over the years with smaller, narrower ones generally being used on J & S Guns on later guns especially when Sam took over.
E. Vast majority of stocks are plain maple.
F. Underrib usually affixed to barrel with screws; sometimes filed off and peened flat to under radius.Actually almost all are riveted and peened with screws being infrequently used - modern makers often use screws and then file them to appear like rivets
G. Soft solder half moon fill visible at muzzle end of underrib.
H. Slotted cross keys.Again a generalization some did and some did not - most keys appear to have been purchased parts

These features are among those most commonly encountered, but as mentioned before not always. One or more may be lacking on a specific rifle since each gun was hand crafted and later alteration may have been undertaken for various reasons.

These "facts" are attributes of most Hawken rifles. You need to know the Hawken history though as Hawken started out with full stock rifles just before 1830. Actually both brothers were building guns well before that and became partners in 1825 As popularity grew they began making the more expensive half stock for the mountain and plains use. There are not many records of flintlocks being made by Hawken A few are known but were not common. .Early records are virtually non-existent so we really don't know - I'll make a comment regarding Hanson's book later, from which it appears much of this info is fromThe 1830 to 1849 was the J&S Hawken era, which was the classic Hawken rifles (1-1/8" tapered barrel and tapered lock panels on the stock). Again barrels varied in size and shape so saying they were all 1 1/8" tapered is a simplification.
When Jake died from cholera in 1849, Sam continued with S Hawken rifles from 1850 to the late 1860's.Sam took over the shop in 1849 and turned it over to his son William in 1853 - see Hanson's Hawken book for the correct dates, Baird was wrong. Those rifles were different architecture (Straight 1" barrel and straight lock panels on the stock along with an oval trigger guard) and were lighter rifles than the J&S rifles. Well must disagree, while some did have 1" barrels, but again all those still in existence are tapered and many are larger such as the Montana Bridger rifle whihc is 1 1/8" and tapered. And in general most of the Sam Hawken guns are a bit heavier than the J & S guns - but most Hawkens in fact of whatever era weigh 10-10 1/2 poundsSo, you see, it depends on what era you wish to accurately represent.

The engraving on the Goulcher lock and the Lancaster type patch box seemed to be something that came about when Tristan Campbell went to work for Sam.

1) Tristram Campbell worked as a subsdiary shop to the Hawkns in 1843. The whole engraving argument was made by Baird and with all due respect to John, it does not hold up the light of day when you see the rifles built by Sam for example before his partnership - they are eastern style long rifles with engraving including his signature (there are more than just the one shown in Hanson). This would have been part of Sam's training and Jake would have had the same training before arriving in St. Louis. Also see the fancy silver mounted Atkinsons rifle which is dated to 1836 and is quite heavily engraved.

Regarding Hanson's and Baird's books too:
1) They have much old info that has either been shown to be wrong (such as the early arrival in St. Louis dates)or new info has come to light which is not included. Both books are just the tip of the proverbial iceberg and should be read with that in mind.
2) Neither book should be held up as Gospel (something which Dr. Hanson warns of several times in his book). Still even though with that warning Dr. Hanson's book in particular is often considered to be the final word and it is not - not only has new info come to light, but some of his facts are in error, and some of his arguments and conclusions are a bit "prejudiced" and not particularly good scholarship...

My purpose is not to deride any other rifle, only to say that this is what a Hawken is. I do find it somewhat interesting that of all the rifles produced and taken to the frontiers, that Hawken had fewer than most any other maker, but for some reason, they emerged as the "name" to have. Hollyweird contributed to the popularity of the name by using all sorts of rifles in films and referring to them as Hawkens.

I agree whole heartedly and feel the same way - as to their being the "name" well that started well before Hollywood - in the 1840's and 50's, but Hollywood did have much to do with the use (and perhaps abuse) of the name since the 1970's.

Please excuse any misspellings or other weirdness - it's late and I'm tired after a long day in the shop.......

 

[F.G. Ford]

Great information "Guys" certainly gives a broader perspective on what a "Hawken" should look like.
I remember way back in the 70's walking with my new polished T&C "Hawken" at Rondevous, thinking, I would be the envy of all, with this fine rifle.....untill I saw a "GEMMER HAWKEN" (repro)
I left with my head in shame.
The only similarity to the "Gemmer Hawken" and my Beautiful T&C was that they both had barrels, trigger, and wood. RATS! what a discovery.
Best Regards
Old Ford

 

[mykeal]

LeBonte & Bountyhunter: thank you both. This subject gets a lot of people heated up and tossing around 'facts' that don't merit argument. Your contributions are exactly the opposite and much appreciated, not only for the information but the civilized manner in which it was presented. Thanks, again.

 

[roundball]

And its worth pointing out that while you may have had some assumptions about the Hawken you bought, most people who buy a mass produced muzzleloader that may happen to be called a Hawken, do so without any idea that some other ML built almost a couple centuries ago happened to be referred to by the name of the family who ran a business that made some.

GENERAL COMMENT

I appreciate the commitment anyone makes who decides to study anything from ages ago whether its MLs, art, religion, war, etc...but IMO I think its easy for some who do that to take on a veiw (in the case of Hawkens) of them with almost an air of reverence...and that's fine by itself.
But I also think it's safe to say that onlookers occasionally see a hair trigger reaction on the part of some devotees to anyone else who speaks of their particular muzzleloader purchase that happens to have been named a Hawken.

And right here in this very thread we have a couple of folks who lay claim to knowing facts about the Hawkens of old, yet they themselves claim many disparities between them even in their facts, and do so with some zeal...but that's OK...that's where these kinds of dicsussion are most appropriate...among people discussing minute details in an area of common interest of those old Hawkens...not in wasting anybody else's time taking issue with somebody's happenstance choice of buying a modern mass produced ML that happens to be called a Hawken almost 200 years after somebody else made a few.

By far the vast majority of muzzleloading enthusiasts know exactly what a modern mass produced Hawken is, and don't even have the first thought about trying to portray one as a copy of some old original stuck in a museum somewhere.

:v

 

[Vaino]

Bounty Hunter and LaBonte....thanks for a discussion that was very enlightening, civil and above all informative. If I were to scratch build a Hawken of whatever period, at least some semblence of authenticity could be achieved after your discussion. Due to variations among extant original Hawkens, choices would still have to be made and seeing purchased parts would be used, a decision as to how authentic these parts are, would also have to be made. Even Don Stith's parts sets have parts that are probably not authentic, eg...cast steel fore end cap and cast entry pipe? Also the under rib is solid and attached w/ screws? Otherwise Stith's "Hawkens" are more "Hawkenish" than other Hawken parts sets.Thanks again for the knowledge displayed in your discussion.....Fred

 

[Bountyhunter]

Fred,
That is part of the reason for making this post is to point out that every one of those rifles are a bit different. The best attempt to recreate a rifle would still amount to your best effort at an average Hawken Rifle, since there are so many variations.

RB
Since the TC's and Traditons rifles closely copy Tryon Frontier Trade Rifles, why not put together a Tryon History to support them? I dont see any thing wrong with having the history on other makers, I think it would be a benefit to the whole community. There are a dozen other makers who do not have the publicity on their histories as Hawken, but put out more rifles.

 

[Capt. Fred]

Yup, thanks guys. Great info.

 

[rebel727]

I'd like to see some pics of Tryon trade rifles.

 

[Herb]

A really good discussion and scholarship! Now let's stir the pot a bit. Are there any original J&S or S Hawken LEFT HANDED rifles? Can you show up at a strict rendezvous with one and not get kicked out? Don Stith is quoted as an authority on original Hawkens and he makes and sells a "S. Hawken Plains Rifle" available as left handed. This is not saying it is a copy of an original, but how about left handed originals? Behold, The Longrifle by Whisker has on page 223 photos of an original Tristan Campbell left handed fur trade gun. Even I have built a left handed Hawken copy from parts and the stick.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have not heard of any LH Hawken ORIGINAL Rifles. That is not to say that one may not have been made.It just means that if one was, it, along with a lot of RH Hawkens have been lost to history. I looked at this issue back in the 70s when I first interested in a Hawken rifle. I looked again about 15 years ago, when the stories started coming out abut more than one Hawken Flintlock having been found. I thought that perhaps all the research done on the early Hawken rifles, that produced the full stock, and flintlock hawkens, might have also found a LH Hawken. But, not yet.

 

[J.D.]

A. There is nearly a 1/4" taper from front to rear of the lock plate area side to side.
Most do but others have no more than 1/8" or are flat

I wonder if the amount of taper on the side plates has to do with the diameter of the barrel? Would the varying amounts of taper have to do with the way the tail of the side plate, due to barrel dia, blends and tapers into the wrist?

Thanks,
J.D.

 

[Bountyhunter]

That info is from the Hawken Shop website. I questioned that myself. The rifles that I have seen had about 1/8" taper. A quarter of an inch on the lockplates in what? six inches of lock face? That is awfully steep.

 

[Rat Trapper]

This is one of the best post so far! Regarding left hand Hawken rifles, sure wouldn't surprize me as they were all hand made and they surely would have built what ever some one was willing to pay for. Sure would like to see some additional info on the Tryon rifles. Does anyone have pictures? How close would they be to a TC rifle? Again thanks for the info posted so far.

 

[fred t]

gentlemen this is the reason I joined this forum.
the exchange of idea's, well done!
thank you one and all!!
fred

 

[BossHoss]

Gud thread my ole freind :thumbsup:
I always knowd you was the Hawken guy :bow:

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Evening Musketman,

Many thanks for the "re-thread" on the Hawken. I remember when you posted it originally and printed the post for future reference.

My first impression of the photos was how much it resembles the Marino Medina Hawken rifle pictured in John Baird's book.

I know that today there are arguments that the Medina rifle was not produced by the Hawken brothers, but by one of their contempories, however, when one compares the similarity of the two rifles, even the patch boxs, then I need much more hard proof to convince me that the Medina rifle is not an original Hawken.

There are a number of fancy J&S Hawken rifles and at least one fancy Sam Hawken rifle, so producing the Medina was certainly not beyond the skills of Jake or Sam Hawken.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA or NMLRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

LIBERAL Politicians LIE!!! USA Freedoms DIE!!!!

 

[DanChamberlain]

A general question;

Were most "Hawken" rifles custom built or off the rack guns for general purchase?

Dan