GPR Flintlock

[Darkhorse]

There are a good many posts on this forum mentioning the Lyman GPR. There also some questions about reliable ignition. I just thought I would share some of the things I have found about this rifle over the years.
When I got the gun it only fired about one third of the time. Even with a flash in the pan I got no ignition. I modified the touch hole liner. I drilled it out to .080 then using a .120 round tip carbide cutter, I removed the center of the screw slot down to the flash hole. Using a #1 center drill I drilled out the back down to where there was only about .050 of flash channel between the face and cone. Next I took a tapered cutter and further opened the cone as far as possible.
With the standard Lyman liner you are limited to what you can do as the diameter is so small. An even better solution would be to replace it with one of the newer ones from Jim Chambers.
This modification gives me ignition everytime I get flash from the pan. Lock time is fast also.
I have noticed that the Lyman frizzen is not as hard as it needs to be. Most of them give several orange sparks, not a shower of hot white sparks. There is a difference and it shows up in how fast and reliable your locktime is. To get by I bought several frizzens and tried different ones until I found the best. Case hardening the frizzen with Kasenit is also an option though I haven't tried it yet.
For these frizzens to work to my satisfaction my flint must be very hard and sharp. A crumbly flint won't do the trick. When I get a particularly good one I save that one for hunting.
The trigger leaves a lot to be desired compared to the TC. I dissasembled mine and honed all the surfaces.
For years I used Crisco and tried other stuff, cleaning regularly as your rifle dictates.
Then a friend talked me into using some WonderLube 1000 by Ox Yoke. This is some great stuff. I use it as a lube and rust preventative. My GPR hasn't had a drop of gun oil in over 5 years.
When range shooting if I use half or a little greater charge, then I never clean the bore all day. Accuracy never suffers and crud and clinkers are not pushed down to cover the touch hole. If I shoot a heavy charge it acts just like normal and the barrel must be cleaned every few shots.
When doing a thorough cleaning I use a regular centerfire rifle jag after swabbing the bore with the .54 jag and hot water. This gets a patch down into the smaller powder chamber where the .54 jag and patch won't reach.
Seeing as BP residue attracts moisture, I don't fire a pan or 2 of powder before loading my hunting load. I wipe the bore with a couple of dry patches then using a patch soaked in "Golden Grain" alcohol, I pour a little down the bore then swab it. I like to see some forced out the flash hole. "Golden Grain" is 190 proof with very little water content, compared to rubbing alcohol. It cleans well and evaporates fast.
I also wipe my frizzen and flint with alcohol.
Due to the humidity we have down here I prime my hunting loads with FFFG instead of 4F. I keep a leather frizzen cover on and carry a cows knee.
After taking the time to do all this, if my rifle "Doesn't" fire, then I am surprised.
I have hunted extensively with both the percussion and flintlock and I don't think the flinter will ever be as fast or reliable as a good percussion. But I think doing these things has make my Lyman as dependable as an off the shelf production gun can be.

 

[LRB]

There is nothing wrong with orange sparks, they burn longer. White sparks indicate a too hard frizzen. I suspect the main spring may be a bit weak or just poor geometry. Try a washer or spacer with the coil spring to increase power. A properly hardened frizzen can be cut with a new file to the degree that the cut is a positive scratch rather than an acual cut, you should be able to feel a slight bite with a pressured stroke. Of course the frizzen has to be a high carbon quality steel. As far as the triggers, most are over powered as they come. Also the sear spring on 98% of all locks is much over powered, and in both cases cause premature wear. If you lighten the sear spring this will allow a much lighter setting for your triggers. As far as the breech, the inside diameter can be increased with a little dremel work, just don't go too far. this adds to better ignition. A Chambers vent liner would be a large plus. Smooth all moving parts and contact areas. To be at its best a flint cock should have no drag in it that you can feel. The frizzen should have no drag other than at the cam, and that needs to be minimized. These locks are not optimal, but can be made to work much better.

 

[Randy]

I've always thought orange sparks were too cool for good ignition and indicate a "soft" frizzen. I had a discussion with a lock maker once and he told me sizzling white sparks are the best and hottest. If the frizzen is too hard you get no sparks at all because the flint can't scrape any metal off. I've made frizzens too soft but so far never felt I had over hardened one. I'm sure it can be done.
Unless it's high carbon steel I quench in room temp water. High carbon (such as 1095 steel) I quench in trans fluid. Water makes them harder but may cause High carbon steel to crack. I always cover the face with Kasenit while heating to prevent carbon leaching.
I never had much faith in the file test. Most of my files are dull and I hate to dull the few good files I own on a hard frizzen. I test mine with flint and powder.

Horse Dr.

 

[LRB]

White hot sparks are very small and burn up very fast. Orange sparks are larger and burn longer and with a good flint you can often see them dancing and sizzling in the pan. The orange spark is much more reliable with damp priming but either works well in dry conditions. I have a Siler lock, and in a darkened room I have had sparks fall as far as my knee from a waist high position burning like little meteors. Granted, you may have to smooth your frizzen face more often, I do mine maybe every year or so and I shoot quite a bit, but fast and sure ignition is what we are after , right? As far as 1095 steel, that is the steel to use for half soling or strikers, I have yet to see a better sparking steel.

 

[kvistads]

Sparks to my knee?

Now that sounds like the kind of frizzen I need. I'll go with Wick's way! He sounds like he's shot a few flintlocks before.

 

[LRB]

Russell, note that I said a GOOD flint, and mine is a Chambers Siler lock made from a kit and I did the heat treat. I don't know what lock you have, but if you are game I will tell you how to do it with minimal risk. Go in a darkened room and snap your lock and see just what color you get. This will be trial and error. If you get white sparks, polish the face of your frizzen to 220 grit clean finish. In good light, using a common propane torch slowly and carefully bring the face to a light bronze color.No more than that. It is easy to over heat so as you go along take the flame away every few seconds and allow the frizzen to soak in the heat. Once you get the bronze let it air cool to room temp + 30 min. Then try it. If you still get white sparks, Repeat, but go for a tad more color and so on until you get the bright orange. Even red orange is good if the steel is really good and it is throwing a nice shower of sparks and that is acually closer to what I get. Now, if you don't mind being non PC about flints, I'll give you another tip. Contact ELK ENTERPRISES and get one of their DURA-FLINTS. You will think that you are going to set your rifle on fire. This things are made of reconstituted gem stone and will last maybe a year of hard shooting and are resharpened with a diamond faced knife sharpener about every 40 to 60 shots in my experience. They cost around

 

[LRB]

Russell, note that I said a GOOD flint, and mine is a Chambers Siler lock made from a kit and I did the heat treat. I don't know what lock you have, but if you are game I will tell you how to do it with minimal risk. Go in a darkened room and snap your lock and see just what color you get. This will be trial and error. If you get white sparks, polish the face of your frizzen to 220 grit clean finish. In good light, using a common propane torch slowly and carefully bring the face to a light bronze color.No more than that. It is easy to over heat so as you go along take the flame away every few seconds and allow the frizzen to soak in the heat. Once you get the bronze let it air cool to room temp + 30 min. Then try it. If you still get white sparks, Repeat, but go for a tad more color and so on until you get the bright orange. Even red orange is good if the steel is really good and it is throwing a nice shower of sparks and that is acually closer to what I get. Now, if you don't mind being non PC about flints, I'll give you another tip. Contact ELK ENTERPRISES and get one of their DURA-FLINTS. You will think that you are going to set your rifle on fire. This things are made of reconstituted gem stone and will last maybe a year of hard shooting and are resharpened with a diamond faced knife sharpener about every 40 to 60 shots in my experience. They cost around 4.oo. I stopped using them just to be more PC.

 

[kvistads]

Wick:
Yes I've built a couple of Silers from kits. I seem to learn more on each one I build. Although I've never used or installed either of the locks I've built (one guy wanted it more than me) I assume they would work fine. Especially the one I'm (longrifle) building now. It will have the Siler I just built. The frizzen is a funny fussy little gizzmo. The first one I built worked fine by heating to critical and quenching in trans oil. The last one would not harden for anything using the same method. I just can't figure it out. Finally a fellow club member who lives in FL told me to quench in water. This time it got hard. I did the torch thing but may have gotten it too soft again at the top. I don't know at the moment because I took it apart to inlet the plate in the stock. Once I get that done I'll put it back together and test it. It started to turn violet a little at the tip. The rest of it is a good straw color. Thanks for your help.

 

[Darkhorse]

I'll try for the "shower" of white sparks anyday. White is hotter than orange and they don't need to fall to my knee, just into the pan.
A properly hardened frizzen is 54 to 55 rockwell and for me it is too close to file hardness for a guess test. I first test by sliding the cock with a sharp flint down the face to see if it trys to dig in. Then I will snap a couple off, followed by testing with a pan of prime if all looks well.
I would never quench a high carbon steel in water. There is too much of a risk of brittleness and cracking. If it won't harden in oil then Kasenite should be applied.

 

[kvistads]

Darkhorse: I do use the Kasenite on the face. Haven't had any trouble with cracking either. Actually if you heat frizzen to critical then dip in Kasenite, re-heat then drop in a five gallon bucket of water, the Kasenite will "pop" right off from the rapid cooling effect. I was told you cannot harden 1095 steel in oil and I understand that is the type of steel Jim Chambers uses. Maybe I could be wrong. I think if you do your research you'll find that 1095 is hardened by water. Either way mine ain't cracked.

I've found out sinse I've been reading opinions about these locks that there are as many opinions on different mods as there are birds. That's what makes the world round I guess. I take the ones I like and forget the others.

 

[djnye]

i also use 1095 for my knife blades(i make about 6 or so a year, and are mainly carving knives and crook'd knives). i quench in oil that is about 100 degrees and then tempor in the oven starting about 400 degrees and bring to light to medium straw. i like the oven because i can bring the temp up so slow , hold it and then bring it back down slow. forgot to mention that i also kasenit when hardening initially. i don't have hardness testing equiptment but my blades are delicate and flexible, while taking and holding a very fine edge that is very durable.

daniel

 

[LRB]

Darkhorse I have a set of testing files. They are not perfect, but over the years I have learned to use them pretty acurately by testing and having my results compared to a rockwell test. If the 55 wont cut at all and the 60 will, I can come very close by judging the degree the 60 cuts. As I said this is not perfect, but a Rockwell tester also has a degree of error. This is on the Rockwell C scale. Never figured I need more acuracy than the testing files, least not bad enough to justify the price of a Rockwell tester. DJNYE, if you are getting the desired results, then you can tell me to go to H , but from the research i've done and the knifemakers I have consulted over 32 years of making knives , in my opinion you will get even better results by raising the oil temp. You may already know that hot oil cools steel faster than cool oil because of the vaper barrier that happens when hot steel goes in cool oil. That said, I will also add that one cannot argue with success. If you are sure of your process, then by all means continue what you are doing. My congrats on your choice of steel. I am very satisfied with it. I will give you a tip if you have had any warpage problem. Bring it up to critical 3 times before you harden, or full anneal, which is best. Straighten any time neccessary. AS soon as you can after removing from the oil, check for straightness. If not straight, give it a bend with your hands. Most often you can straighten at this time. You have about 5 minutes or a tad more to do your straightening. Things are still going on in that steel for as much as 10 minutes, depending on thickness. I said hands, but use a rag, it is still hot to the touch when I do this. If you are forging these blades be extra careful of your heat when hammering, it is very prone to micro cracking. this is why many smiths do not use it.

 

[LRB]

DJNYE. After rereading your post, I would also suggest you try 3 separate tempers at 430, allowing the blade to air cool between tempers. This assures that the molecular transformation has taken place and at that temp, if full hard to begin with, will give you about 57 to 58 rc which I have found to be a very good hardness for most uses. 1 temp at 400 is a tad on the brittle side in my experiance, but as I said, if you are getting the results you want, disregard my advice. I have learned in 58 years that what works for one, may not do for another. Good luck and happy knifemaking.

 

[tg]

I have been trying to imagine a group of longhunters hunkering around the fire offering their thoughts on frizzens and knife baldes and for some reason I just cannot picture the above conversations taking place..(VBG)

 

[djnye]

hey wick-- i start about 400 on my oven, but raise slowly and judge by color. one very long bake works just fine thank you. and you are right, the proof is in the pudding--if you carve wood, get one of my crook'd knives and i gaurantee you'll love it.

daniel

 

[Randy]

Hey TG,
Great observation. I've been imagining a group os crusty old codgers sitting around talking about how long they bake their frizzens and knives and just had to laugh.

FYI. Most frizzens are made of 1095 steel, and most of the rest are 6150 , which is a lower carbon chrome-vanadium alloy that has very good casting characteristics. L and R locks told me that a lot of times they didn't know which type the foundry was sending them when they had a batch of frizzens cast. That may account for some of the variation we are experiencing here. Even though both of the above are supposed to be oil hardening steels The Rifle Shoppe reccomends quenching in water to get a good hard frizzen. I made a lock from Rifle Shoppe parts and tried to harden the frizzen in oil, like the directions for a siler lock kit say. It didn't spark well until i rehardened it in water. (Later found out Riffle Shoppe frizzens are 6150).
I once made a frizzen out of an old lawnmower blade and quenched in water after heating with Kasenit on the face. It sparked OK but not great. The geometry wasn't too good but it did work. Next time I'll spend the $15 and get a replacement. I spent way too long making that one and it looked pretty crude.

Horse Dr.

 

[LRB]

You can certainly harden 1095 in oil, it is one of my main knife steels. I use used motor oil thinned a bit with kerosene and pre warm it to 125o F. blades come out above 65 rc. You cannot cut them with a file. With fire strikers I quench in water. And frizzens. Small parts cool to fast for me to oil quench with the set up I have.

 

[LRB]

Also FYI, file steel works the same way. I also make a lot of file knives. It also tempers at the same heat as 1095, but it seems 1095 gives a better spark. Just went to my shop and tested my frizzen for hardness. Came out at 56rc to 57rc and I get orange to red orange sparks and plenty of them.

 

[Darkhorse]

Just out of curiosity; What method did you use to test your hardness?
What scale are you testing on?

 

[Darkhorse]

While all of the above makes interesting reading it has gotten off my original purpose when I started this post.
It was never intended to be a technical discussion of heat treating methods and tool steels or anything beyond basic flintlock skills.
I find home shop skills interesting but with over 30 years in the Metal working trade, from a Tool & Die apprentice at 18 to a design engineer at 51, I tend to compare everything to modern, proven techniques including heat treating and testing procedures and equiptment.
It is a moot point.

What I intended was a little advice to a new or inexperienced shooter about things he or she could do to improve their shooting of the flintlock.
Most fairly competent people can hone the burrs and rough edges off of lock components. Most of those same people have no buisness fooling with adjusting trigger weight that is determined by spring steel.
It is far easier to change a frizzen than it is to try and reheat or caseharden one that gives a bad spark. I consider that a much more succesful method for the average shooter.
I would never suggest to the average shooter that he take a dremel tool and carve on his chamber.
It is very frustrating for a new shooter when they get poor, unreliable ignition. For many all it will take is to be informed of the little things that it took most of us years to learn.
I think the a bigger problem with these production rifles is the touchhole, not the frizzen. Even with a good sharp flint and flash in the pan, if the fire doesn't find the charge then there is no ignition.
My method of modification of a touch hole liner can be done with vise grips or vise, with a hand drill or bench drill, and with simple tools that can be bought locally. A person can buy several new liners cheap and keep trying till they get it right.
A lot of new shooters don't know that black powder residue attracts moisture. They don't know how to prepare the rifle for faultless ignition. Some don't even know the right way to clean.
Patch material can be a mystery.
Patch lube also.
Many times the only advice given is by a salesman who doesn't know anymore than the buyer. The results are guns that don't fire. Stuck patches and balls stuck halfway down a fouled bore.
These type things can drive a person to an inline real fast.

My purpose was a few tips that could help a new flintlock shooter.
For this purpose let's keep it simple.