English 73" Wildfowler

[Artificer]

Part of what I admire so much about this gun is how similar it is in some degree to a King’s Pattern/Brown Bess Musket and/or an Officer’s Fusil, though this gun is larger than the former and much larger than the latter.

This makes me wonder if the original owner of the gun had military experience, AND/OR if the gunsmith who made it, also was involved a great deal in making guns for the British Army or at least some of the Officer Corps?

The long “hand rail” of the stock is the dead giveaway to it having some military styling influence, but also the butt plate and the trigger guard. The Side Plate and the Thumb Piece are more akin to an Officer’s Fusil, but still “military influenced,” it seems to me. The Barrel Tang “Apron,” or carving around the tang is not a direct copy of a military style I know of, but is still something like a more finely stylized military Apron. The original 18th century engraving of the lockplate and other metal parts would be right at home on an Officer’s Fusil.

David, to get an idea of the scale of this gun, have you measured the length of the Lock Plate? That would really interest me if you have that measurement.

Gus

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Hi Gus,
This is pretty typical of all the duck guns and fowling pieces of the period that I have had the opportunity to handle or see in pictures. The corrugated (ringed) thimbles are more frequently seen on earlier pieces or by use of new old stock or styles on later pieces of lesser quality. Minus the later added engraving, I would say the same hand who engraved the lock on my silver mounted Joseph Heylin gun.

 

[dave_person]

Hi James,
That is a beautiful fowling gun.

dave

 

[Artificer]

Hi Gus,
This is pretty typical of all the duck guns and fowling pieces of the period that I have had the opportunity to handle or see in pictures. The corrugated (ringed) thimbles are more frequently seen on earlier pieces or by use of new old stock or styles on later pieces of lesser quality. Minus the later added engraving, I would say the same hand who engraved the lock on my silver mounted Joseph Heylin gun.

Hi James,

So, did the King's Pattern Muskets copy civilian stocks or was it vice versa? Or was it just coincidence?

When I viewed an original F&I period Wilson Para Military or Commercial Musket at Valley Forge a few years ago, it also had the corrugated rings on the thimbles as does the one below that was donated to Fort Ticonderoga. (If you super enlarge the photo on this link, you can see them.)
http://www.mynbc5.com/article/rare-18th-cent-musket-donated-to-upstate-ny-fort/3308470

This actually surprised me as it would seem the corrugated thimbles would cost more to do than the "Issue Type" Brown Bess thimbles.

Gus

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Gus, The English guns as a whole were following slowly the French styles in stock design and hardware. Some of the best English gunmakers were French and Dutch (ex. Louis Barbour, Andreas Dolep).
The English market, as well as other English makers I am sure, allowed for a more reserved element in utilizing the French designs.
I looked at the link and it looks like I only see rings on the ends of those thimbles but I am trying to view it on a small screen.

What I find intriguing with English manufacture is style was very important. It is not uncommon to see hardware that was apparently high end and popular during an earlier period on a gun of lesser quality at a later date. I don't know if it was utilizing old stock and/or just making a clear delineation from the top crust. Even though Indian desires may have driven some of this example, the serpent side plate is a good example as it can be found on 17th century best guns but remained on trade guns well into the 19th century.
Another example is the use of mid 18th century 1st pattern acorn trigger guards being used in a great way on early 19th century cheap export fowling pieces.

 

[Artificer]

Gus, The English guns as a whole were following slowly the French styles in stock design and hardware. Some of the best English gunmakers were French and Dutch (ex. Louis Barbour, Andreas Dolep).
The English market, as well as other English makers I am sure, allowed for a more reserved element in utilizing the French designs.

James,

I had to super enlarge the pic many times, but the rings are there over the entire length of the thimbles on the Wilson Musket at Ticonderoga. The only reason I knew to look for them was the same period Wilson Commercial Musket I saw displayed at Valley Forge, also had rings over the entire thimbles.

Could not find the link to the American Rifleman Article by George Neuman where it shows some very nice "Colonial Hunting Guns" of French, English and I think one Dutch fowler - to get a better idea of what you meant. (Sadly, I think it is no longer available.) Generally, do you mean the English guns did not have as much curve to the top and bottom of the stock as did the French Guns?

Also, it seems the "Hand Rail" (as described in period British Musket terms), or the rounded portion of the stock from the grip going backwards, is longer and goes further back into the buttstock on English guns rather than French Guns? The hand rail on the OP's gun reminds me strongly of hand rails on Brown Bess Muskets from the P1742 onward.

Gus

 

[Dave Wallis]

Gus; The lockplate is 6 1/2" in length.

 

[Artificer]

Gus; The lockplate is 6 1/2" in length.

Wow, that's kind of surprisingly small. More on the lines of a Carbine Lock. Thank you.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

OK, just found a correct link to the American Rifleman Article on Colonial Hunting Guns by George Neuman. Thought at least some other members would enjoy seeing it.

Colonial Hunting Guns article by George Neuman http://www.jaegerkorps.org/NRA/Hunting Guns in Colonial America.htm

Gus

 

[vulture]

Why can't I see the photos? I get a message telling me to update my account to allow third party hosting, or some such thing. Not at all sure what it all means.

 

[Feltwad]

Why can't I see the photos? I get a message telling me to update my account to allow third party hosting, or some such thing. Not at all sure what it all means.

Not seeing the images Photo bucket has now charged for images that's why you are seeing uptade my account .
Sure Dodgydave will come along and explain the gun .
Feltwad

 

[Dave Wallis]

Unfortunately, my photos were all on photobucket, who have decided to blackmail me, by demanding money if I want to use MY photos on any forum. The English term used for people like this is 'Wankers'
I shall try to re post the photos.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Look back through some of the posts about trouble with Photobucket. Several members have found other providers who don't hold your photos hostage!

 

[Dave Wallis]

 

[Wes/Tex]

Sorry, that attempt failed.

 

[Dave Wallis]

nuts....

 

[Dave Wallis]

heading in the right direction....

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[Wes/Tex]

More of the same! :wink:

 

[Dave Wallis]

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[Dave Wallis]

[/url]DSCF7447_zpsro47p1wx by https://www.flickr.com/photos/160259516@N07/, [/img]