drill press to mill conversion

[ron ward]

mattybok,
the fact that "light milling' is even actually doable with a drill press conversion is a mute point for all practicle purposes in gunsmithing. the majority of the "milling i do with my drillpress is free hand where i'm not actually trying for a precise fit, but just making small sawn pieces flat and straight so they look somewhat professional... the actual size they end up is not all that important, so a controled, precise cut isn't necessary...basicly just the opposite of what you would need a mill for in gunsmithing. with my set up, i can make end cuts of .010" or so, comfortably in brass and aluminum, maybe a bit more and i limit side cuts to just cleaning up saw marks and straightening out edges in up to 1/2" stock. the other factor is that with a drillpress converion, unless you go to the trouble of indicating quill travel, you have no precise method od controlling cut depth even remotely close to what is required to doo decent mill-work.
the point is that there is very little brass and alum used in guns other than a little brass on muzzle guns, which are the smallest proportion of gun work as it is. in any steel, which is far and away the most used, there is just no way a drillpress is going to be rigid enough to do any cutting at all... not even a few thousandths per pass....even the lower priced small knee-mills from enco and others that are bridgeport spin-offs, will exibit some flex at times.
a lathe is much more usable and needed for general gun work and in a pinch, it will work as a mill, but set up is extremely time consuming even for a simple, short, straight edge cut or plunge cut. because you don't have movement in both x and y planes.
you will find that a lathe is the better money spent and that the milling can be gotten around for a long time untill you get to the point that you are actually "making" allot of speacialty parts. by then, if you get that far into the trade, you will be able to justify the cost of a mill and the tooling needed.
i would say, and i'm quite sure everyone here will agree, that the biggest reason most guys don't succeed is that they dive in and think they need to have all the high dollar equipment right off the bat, then find out buisiness volume can't pay for it. that buddy of mine that is a gunsmith is 61 yrs. old and i've known him for about 25 yrs, now. i remember that he got his mill a couple years after i met him.... and he has about a 1-1/2 year back-log on builds and stocking. now....do the math. :wink:

 

[Tinker2]

I think you have gotten some very good advice.

This is what I did when I was young and foolish.

Made with just hand tools and junk mostly.

It is not my idea of what you should do, just what can be done.


Good luck to you.


William Alexander

 

[PA16th]

If you plan on working on any modern guns as a gunsmith you will need to meet ALOT of federal Regulations.Choose wisely your road to travel.

Best Wishes for your success,
Don

 

[Zonie]

Very true PA16th.

A person can work on their own gun without Federal interference but if they are going to work on other peoples guns they must be licensed.

As for checkering stocks, I believe that if the guns action (barrel/receiver etc.) is removed, the stock just becomes another piece of wood so there shouldn't be a problem.

Checkering isn't something that is easily done so a lot of practice on things like baseball bats and other curved pieces of wood is needed before trying to improve on a Weatherby.

 

[ron ward]

zonie,
as far as i am aware, and i very well may not be aware, i have never seen any federal or state qualification necessary to hang a "gunsmith" shingle on you mailbox post. there are several general regulations about shop hours, shipping and record keeping, etc. and of course, insurance carriers might like to see a liscence to cover you or for you to get a job at a particular shop, but none of that has to do with any federal certifcation. this liscence might be just a registration of the business for special tax reasons because it involves firearms, but as far as "qualifications as a gunsmith" such as those required by plumbers and electritions to confirm competant knowledge of building, fire and sanitation codes, i don't think any are in place.
not being argumentive here, i'd just like to be better informed! :grin:
i do think it would be a good requirement. i've spent my working life as a carpenter and i've seen some mighty scary things done by "insured and certified builders of fine homes".

 

[matt denison]

A person can work on their own gun without Federal interference but if they are going to work on other peoples guns they must be licensed

I think what Zonie is talking about is an FFL which is legally required to check firearms in and out of your shop. Stoopid regulation but there it is. In fact if done legally a gunsmith has to run a Brady before he can give you your gun back. Stupid, stupid. These regulations and others have put a lot of 'smiths out of business in the last 10-12 years (since Clinton) You also give up your 14th amendment rights of search and seizure since the Feds can come inspect your premises at will. Plus the FFL is $300 every two years.

Another for-instance: since I am a "manufacturer of pre 1898 guns" and don't have an FFL I can not have any modern firearms in the building at all. This includes my own guns. Period. This regulation includes a concealed gun on my person - (yea, right) - or anyone else entering the building.

 

[Longsmoke]

If you are doing repair work on a gun it gets logged in as a repair. When the owner picks it up you just need to log it out to him. On the other hand if a shop takes a gun on consignment to sell for the owner and it doesn’t sell, the owner will have to fill out the papers and have pass a check before he gets it back.

 

[sc45-70]

Another for-instance: since I am a "manufacturer of pre 1898 guns" and don't have an FFL I can not have any modern firearms in the building at all. This includes my own guns. Period. This regulation includes a concealed gun on my person - (yea, right) - or anyone else entering the building. [/quote]

I know I'm going to open a can of worms here but here goes!

How can you be a manufacture of pre 1898 firearms when the year is 2012?

Federal does not consider pre 1898 guns (with a few exceptions)or muzzleloading guns firearms!

So unless you have some state law against it, Why can't you have a firearm in your shop when you have a non gun
in your shop? That's kind of like saying you can't have a firearm in your shop when you are fixing a toaster in there!
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/1026751/
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/1027374/
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/1027459/
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/1040520/

SC45-70

 

[Rev_William]

Please read it all before writing back.
I am poor. I don not have any money.

I plan on being a gunsmith as a profession. I went to college for funeral directing but it turns out that the fact that 40% of all funeral homes in the US are corporate owned and thus are being strangled by the failed economy has basically shot the funeral industry in the head.
My college education is worthless and all of the money I had sunk into it is more or less lost.

I have owned firearms my whole life and it seems that this is the next option.

A small mill at harbor freight is about $600.
I don't have $600. Poverty is a b*tch.

I can afford a $75 drill press and have the time to jimmy it into a mill.

But how to I do this? I know that there is the issue of stability and wear on the press due to the press simply not being made to take side loads.
One fellow said a while back that he tried it and it vibrated so much that he could not cut a straight line.

I'm know I'm going to need a mill vise, which can be had for cheap at harbor freight. But the issue of wear and side loads seems more problematic than I can do alone.
I have never even seen the inner workings of a mill, all of my gunsmith experience has been with hand tools.

Simply put, how can I turn a drill press into a serviceable mill?

Not trying to sell anything but this guy has a whole series on making shop stuff. saw this title and thought of this thread. Milling Machine (Build Your Own Metalworking Shop from Scrap Series) [Paperback]
David J. Gingery

 

[ron ward]

i understand the FFL regulations reguarding record keeping, hours of operation and business traffic. it was my impression that zonie was refering the "liscence" to some sort of compitencey requirement that,as far as i understand, doesn't exhist. as far as working on other peoples guns, there's no law that says you can't, just a law that says if you want to publicly advertise your services for profit, you have to have an FFL and follow it's regulations reguarding the above mentioned particulars, because of the leathality of business conducted. anyone can work on anyone's gun, the state and federal courts look at it as "buyer beware" once it leaves the the original manufacturers possetion and it is then subject to private lawsuite to determine fault in the event of injury. there are no "guidelines or leagally accepted methods or suggestions of repair or fabrication", for any fire arm that i know of. as example, the rash of lawsuites several years ago, that were brought to light concerning triggers that resulted in the lousy triggers that are now in our guns were not generated by any state or federal law being ignored, they were generated by private indiviuals that had or generated enough money to hire lawyers to bring suite against the manufacturers, because there is/was nothing that could be found in any legal library that states generally, how a trigger should be made or adjusted. the jist of this is that without that piece of paper saying you, as a private citizen went to school and had lagitimate training in the trade of gunsmithing, wouldn't have a sowball's chance in hades of defending how you made or fixed any particular gun if an accident happened because of something you worked on, only the depth of your pockets and the prowess of your attorney will determine the outcome.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

i understand the FFL regulations reguarding record keeping, hours of operation and business traffic. it was my impression that zonie was refering the "liscence" to some sort of compitencey requirement that,as far as i understand, doesn't exhist. as far as working on other peoples guns, there's no law that says you can't, just a law that says if you want to publicly advertise your services for profit, you have to have an FFL and follow it's regulations reguarding the above mentioned particulars, because of the leathality of business conducted. anyone can work on anyone's gun, the state and federal courts look at it as "buyer beware" once it leaves the the original manufacturers possetion and it is then subject to private lawsuite to determine fault in the event of injury. there are no "guidelines or leagally accepted methods or suggestions of repair or fabrication", for any fire arm that i know of. as example, the rash of lawsuites several years ago, that were brought to light concerning triggers that resulted in the lousy triggers that are now in our guns were not generated by any state or federal law being ignored, they were generated by private indiviuals that had or generated enough money to hire lawyers to bring suite against the manufacturers, because there is/was nothing that could be found in any legal library that states generally, how a trigger should be made or adjusted. the jist of this is that without that piece of paper saying you, as a private citizen went to school and had lagitimate training in the trade of gunsmithing, wouldn't have a sowball's chance in hades of defending how you made or fixed any particular gun if an accident happened because of something you worked on, only the depth of your pockets and the prowess of your attorney will determine the outcome.

Not really,

If you work as an independant taking money from the public ( weather you advertise or not ) you have to follow the rules as set forth.

I cannot engrave your modern firearm without an FFL, its the law.

 

[Zonie]

Just to clarify, I was speaking of the FFL when I mentioned a Federal license requirement.

 

[matt denison]

It's simple (all semantics aside)

No FFL = no fixing modern guns.

I do know the difference between pre 1898 guns and post 1898 firearms laws. I have the book and have read the pertinant parts, have gone through the process (read hassle) with the BATFE. There was much more dialog involved than I am willing to share here. It came down to this:

They tell me "no modern firearms allowed" I say "yes sir".

 

[ron ward]

i guess what i'm trying to say is that an FFL has no influence or qualification connected to the quality or qualifications of the individual as a gunsmith. it is required in order to keep track of buisiness traffic of a dangerous or leathal comodity in public trade. certain chemical handlers have essentially the same requisite under a different name and governing body. why they consider guns of pre-1898 design and archery products not within that same definition, i have no idea, other than volume. that said, it is still entirely leagal to work on someone elses gun if you are not claiming or advertising to be a "gunsmith" and/or not "trading in firearms for profit publicly".

 

[matt denison]

You're 100% right.

Hush, don't give 'em any ideas.

Contractors need to take a test to get a liscence. So do electricians, so does the guy who installs your septic system.

I worked for years as an elevator mechanic and safety inspector - no liscence required, only in-house training. Doesn't make sense. The fella' down the street can do a trigger job as a friendly gesture for a neighbor, accept $20 or a six pack, no liscence. You can sell an old gun to a friend or stranger at a gun show or even advertise it in the paper with no problem. Once you get the FFL everything changes.

Pre 1898 is the way the law is written. Fortunately it includes muzzleloaders no matter when they were made, it's the type or design of gun that counts. You can buy, sell, build, trade and ship them without the FFL.

Didn't mean to poach the thread, I'll be good now, carry on guys.

 

[Tinker2]

Another for-instance: since I am a "manufacturer of pre 1898 guns" and don't have an FFL I can not have any modern firearms in the building at all. This includes my own guns. Period. This regulation includes a concealed gun on my person - (yea, right) - or anyone else entering the building.

Ok, can you show me where you found that?

Are you are saying the ATF doesn’t regulate the sale or manufacture of muzzle loaders but does regulate that you can’t have your own cartridge gun on the same property that they don’t regulate?


Thanks
William Alexander

 

[sc45-70]

I will be the first to admit that you need an FFL if you are going to be Engaged in the Bussiness as a gunsmith for guns made after the year 1898!

I also know that unless you get anything from the ATF in writing it doesn't mean squat!

The Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618
Title 18 United States Code, Chapter 44 sec.921 clearly describes "Engaged in the bussiness" in paragraph (21).

If you read subparagraph (D) in paragraph (21)

I will copy subparagraph (D) from my book (page 6)

(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time,attention,and labor to engaginging such activity as a regular course of trade or bussiness with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

From this you are allowed to do "occasional" work on modern firearms without an FFL.

It all depends on what "occasional" means!

Just to be on the safe side get an FFL or work for someone that has one if you want to work on the modern stuff!

FYI you can not recieve shippments of firearms (unless they are your own) without an FFL!

I don't know if this clears anything up or just makes the water dirtier!

SC45-70

 

[Rev_William]

Oh I know to be good takes time, that's not the issue.
The problem at it's core is that there are no jobs to be had for the youth of America. There is no foothold to begin with.
My goal is to begin my own job, rather than wait on a hiring deal, and so I have chosen gunsmith because I own most of the hand tools needed, lust not the few necessary power tools such as a mill and lathe.

The traditional factory job is dead and buried, ever 'burger flipping' jobs are hard to come by, and most go to the store manager's relatives or friends before they even thing of looking at the real applicants.

I have little money, so I figured I'd make my own power tools (mill in this case) and try and to get buy with that until I had my own cash to buy a cheap mill.

Seems that this light milling on a lathe thing might be good news.

Well there is another untapped job Minister lol I got ordained due to a shortage in the area for weddings baptisms and funerals. ULC.org is free to be ordained if you don't mind public/semi public speaking and once your name gets around people will definitley use your service. I usually get $100-$125 for a no frills wedding ceremony. I usually charge more if I'm involved more such as picking music or doing "custom" wedding such as MT man theme or medevil ceremony's. I do baptisms and funerals free but they usually donate something at the end. Last baptism a guy insisted on giving me $200 because I took the time to do it the way they wanted in their backyard with friends and family.

 

[ron ward]

the definition's parameters are controlled by whether or not you claim income from guns of any sort on your taxes. unfortunately that leaves a mile wide grey area, wide open to cash.... it's written with somewhat of a "scare tactic" incorporated into it, .... "carefull here, if you fool around with guns too much, we're gonna get you" is the message brought forth. it think it's written that way to lead people into either, not fooling around with guns at all or bait them into thinking they need to get an ffl for anything to do with guns. lastly, many laws are written to maintain a healthy bar association!

 

[matt denison]

Tinker2,

This from my earlier post

"There was much more dialog involved than I am willing to share here. "

I don't want to appear rude but I won't answer your question in a public forum. I've perhaps said too much already.

One thing should be made clear. The BATFE is at its core a tax collectioin agency. Yup. The name Bureau of Alcohol, Tobaco Firearms and Explosives. All these things are or were at one time taxable. They are a bureaucracy (sp) not elected, they are apointed. You can't argue with them. It's like argueing with the IRS. They insist on having it their way only. I like to pick my battles and I opted out.