Cook Bros. lock problem

[Artificer]

OK, but you don't need the new sear spring to smoke or grease the tail of the sear and see if it is hitting inside the lock mortise - and if it is, then clear the wood until it doesn't hit. If it is hitting the wood, it is best you clear the wood before filing more on the half cock notch.

Gus

 

[snubnose57]

With the lock installed, and the hammer at rest, there is no play with the trigger. At half cock, it takes little pressure to pull the trigger, with the hammer thus falling to half cock. There is a deep round hole where the sear tail goes. Would have to have a flashlight to see into doing the candle trick. Removing wood is better than filing on the half cock notch for sure. Have tomorrow free, and will see what I can do. Will let everyone know the results.

 

[Zonie]

When you modify the hole the sear arm goes into, remove wood from the upper half of the hole, so the sear arm can travel further upward than it presently can.

Taking a little wood out of that hole will not weaken the stock any and it just might fix the problem.

 

[snubnose57]

Did that, still no luck. Filed the half cock notch, the sear catches on the outer lip of the notch. File a little, reassemble. Tedious work for sure. Will work again tomorrow, and reply with the progress.

 

[nhmoose]

Personally I would get a new tumbler and sear, at this point

 

[Artificer]

Did that, still no luck. Filed the half cock notch, the sear catches on the outer lip of the notch. File a little, reassemble. Tedious work for sure. Will work again tomorrow, and reply with the progress.

It is tedious work and will most likely require many times of taking the lock apart filing and reassembly and trying again.

Are you sure the tail of the Sear is not contacting the wood inside the lock mortise inlet? This was a COMMON problem with EuroArms Enfield Type locks, no matter which Enfield Type Arm they were put on - including your Cook and Brothers Musket. If that is happening, then you have to fix that problem BEFORE you go filing any more on the half cock notch.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Personally I would get a new tumbler and sear, at this point

EuroArms went out of business in 2011 and most of the big parts dealers ran out of parts for them some time ago.

Further, I just pulled out my New Old Stock (NOS) parts to verify my memory was still correct about the tumblers and indeed there is a big difference in the way the notches were cut from tumbler to tumbler. So buying a New Old Stock Tumbler and Sear may not/will not automatically fix the problem without fitting/adjusting.

Lodgewood, Inc. has a new CNC Machined and Hardened Sear for the EuroArms lock, but they are currently out of stock on their new CNC Machined and Hardened Tumblers. Not sure when they will get more tumblers, if they will get more.

A large part of Lodgewood's business is taking care of North South Skirmish Association Shooters along with reenactors. Since NSSA Shooters actually shoot their Muskets with live rounds so often, it makes sense to pay the extra money for hardened parts.

Anyway, here's the link to their new Sears: http://www.lodgewood.com/Euroarms-Enfield-Sear-CNC-Machined-and-Hardened_p_320.html

If Snubnose intends to shoot his musket a lot with live fire rounds, then it might be a good idea to investigate Lodgewood's hardened parts.

However, if there is no damage to the Tumbler and Sear in Snubnose's Musket right now and he doesn't intend to shoot a lot of live fire rounds, I think it is a good idea to try to adjust/refit the parts he has now.

Gus

 

[snubnose57]

Tired of messing with it, took nhmoose's advise, ordered a new sear and tumbler. Need to get this out to shoot before deer season starts.
This rifle appears to be well used, but in good shape.Surely at one time, someone was shooting this.
What went wrong has be baffled Thanks again for everyone's generous help. It this problem still will not go away with new parts, who knows.
Will reply with results when the new parts arrive.

 

[Artificer]

May I ask who made the new sear and tumbler you ordered and where you got them? If they were not originally made by EuroArms or not made specifically to fit EuroArms Enfield type locks, the parts almost certainly will not fit and not work correctly in your musket.

Gus

 

[snubnose57]

That is bad news, ordered the sear off Ebay, and the tumbler from Dixie.

 

[Artificer]

That is bad news, ordered the sear off Ebay, and the tumbler from Dixie.

Dixie MAY still have EuroArms Tumblers, but unless they specifically mentioned they were made by EuroArms or Armi San Paolo, I'm sorry to tell you the tumbler almost certainly won't work in your gun.

You MAY be lucky on eBay IF the seller has NOS EuroArms parts. Otherwise, that sear probably won't fit either.

Please see my new thread on parts for Repro Enfield Locks.

Gus

P.S. I have no idea whether Pedersoli Parts will interchange with EuroArms parts, though.

 

[snubnose57]

Canceled the tumbler from Dixie, nothing I can do about the sear from Ebay. Guess it is back to the file again.

 

[Scota4570]

Canceled the tumbler from Dixie, nothing I can do about the sear from Ebay. Guess it is back to the file again.

"When you find yourself in a hole stop digging"

Stop filing things! You are probably making it worse. It sounds like the tumbler full cook notch has been altered to be shallower. That causes the sear nose to not rotate enough to clear the 1/2 cock notch.

If you can file it you have a second problem, the parts are too soft. Sear noses should be stoned. Angles need to be correct. Filing on the 1/2 cock can create an unsafe gun.

I strongly suggest you farm this out to gunsmith who understands the work and is equipped to do it.

 

[snubnose57]

That is another problem, around here gunsmiths will not work on muzzleloaders. They won't even talk to you about them. The tumbler appears to never been touched, the notches look fine. Just for some reason, with a slight pull on the trigger from full cock, it drops to half cock. Holding the hammer back by hand, there is plenty of room to pull the trigger back even more. As you said, someone may have monkeyed this up already.

 

[snubnose57]

PS, looking at the lock, the outer edge of the half cock notch does stick out a little more than the outer edge of the full cock notch.

 

[Artificer]

PS, looking at the lock, the outer edge of the half cock notch does stick out a little more than the outer edge of the full cock notch.

OK, I was curious to see on Five New Old Stock (NOS) EuroArms Tumblers what was the distance from the Arbor Shaft to the Full Cock Notch compared to the distance from the Arbor Shat to the Half Cock Point. It appears they were manufactured so the Half Cock Point was further than the edge of the Full Cock Notch as shown below. Not only that, but the outer rounded edge of the Half Cock Notch was further out than the Half Cock Point.

1. Arbor to Full Cock Notch: .100 “
Arbor to Half Cock Notch Point distance: .128 “

2. Arbor to Full Cock Notch: .105 ”
Arbor to Half Cock Notch Point distance: .117 ”

3. Arbor to Full Cock Notch: .120 ”
Arbor to Half Cock Notch Point distance: .130 ”

4. Arbor to Full Cock Notch: .112 ”
Arbor to Half Cock Notch distance: .130 ”

5. Arbor to Full Cock Notch: .125 “
Arbor to Half Cock Notch Point distance: .132 “

One thing I commonly did on “Enfield Type” Tumblers of all sorts, as I was shortening the Half Cock Notch, was round that sharp point EVERY time I shortened the Half Cock Notch. This helped keep the Sear Face from catching on the sharp point of the Half Cock Notch.

Gus

 

[Scota4570]

OK....You are dealing with a design defect on the notch depths. Maybe it was intentional but I say it accomplishes nothing and only causes problems.

The full cock notch needs a significant engagement surface, do not make it more shallow. The angle of the notch needs to cause the hammer to cam back just a hair when you pull the trigger. The sear nose must the be flat and match the full cock notch. You want 100% contact, use black marker to check this. The sear spring should bear on the sear as close to the pivot screw as possible. If it has been shortened replace it.

You will probably need to make a new sear if the nose is shortened. It is doable. Make it flat then bend the sear arm. Get some fine diamond laps, sometimes you can get them in the knife sharpening section. Make a jig to keep the part flat to the stone and at the correct angle.

You need a significant trigger pull with the tumbler notches described above. A lite pull is insufficient to make the sear clear the 1/2 cock.

When done heat treat the parts. Heat to orange hot then quench in oil. Draw to blue color. IF they are still soft case harden them.

 

[Artificer]

Hi Scota,

I just looked through my parts and I no longer have a REAL UK made Parker Hale Tumbler, nor an original Enfield Tumbler. So unfortunately, I can't provide the measurements of the notches, as to the way they were originally intended to be manufactured.

However, from many years of using and seeing EuroArms Enfield Rifles used in Reenactments and working these locks for Lighter Match Trigger Jobs, it was not very common that the Sear hit the half cock notch- as the Rifle Muskets/Rifles/Musketoons came from the factory unless the Tail of the Sear hit the wood inside the Lock Mortise OR there was damage or improper modification to the Sear or Notches or both.

Military Full Cock Tumbler Notches were normally not perpendicular to the center of the Tumbler on Flintlock or Percussion Military Locks. Normally the Full Cock Notches angled back towards the rear of the lock a few degrees and in extreme cases you could see/feel the Hammer actually going backwards as you or someone else pulled the trigger. This is what you mentioned as the Full Cock Notch camming the Hammer back until the Sear clears the Full Cock Notch.

Snubnose has mentioned a couple of times that he sees no damage to the Tumbler Notches or the Sear. So my first instinct is the tail of the sear is hitting wood in the Lock Mortise. If that is not the problem, then the Full Cock Notch MAY not be angled correctly, as I believe you meant in your post above.

So it is important to first ensure the tail of the sear is not hitting wood inside the lock mortise, then examine the full cock notch to see if it is at least perpendicular to the center of the Tumbler, if not a few degrees backward.

I agree that one should not use a trigger pull/trigger press that is just light enough to get the sear to disengage from the full cock notch and then let off the pressure on the trigger. You are definitely correct these locks were intended to be used with a continuous and smooth trigger pressure even after the gun goes off. That keeps the nose of the sear well away from the Half Cock notch.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

That is another problem, around here gunsmiths will not work on muzzleloaders. They won't even talk to you about them. The tumbler appears to never been touched, the notches look fine. Just for some reason, with a slight pull on the trigger from full cock, it drops to half cock. Holding the hammer back by hand, there is plenty of room to pull the trigger back even more. As you said, someone may have monkeyed this up already.

Yes, most modern gunsmiths either don't know how to work on these guns, or there is no money in it, or too often one loses money compared to working on modern guns. As much as I enjoyed going to the Spring and Fall National Championships and doing the work for many years; after I retired from the Marine Corps, I could no longer afford to go. So I understand.

If we can't help you figure this out, in what state do you live? Maybe we can give you some ideas on finding a gunsmith or advanced hobbyist who works on these guns to help you.

Gus

 

[snubnose57]

I live in Fort Worth. Looked all over the internet for an Euroarms tumbler, no luck. Guess I will have to work with what I have. I took a Dremmel all around the hole for the sear arm, no problem there. I am using needlenose vise grips to remove the sear spring, is there a better way or tool for this?