conical + overcard

[Walks with fire]

I am wondering how many people have tried using an over the bullet card to keep the conical from potential movement in the bore. Would this have an effect on the accuracy of the bullet? It would probably prevent it from moving off the charge wouldn't it? Is it safe to do something like this? Would it work?

I have never tried it and wonder if it would act as a bit of a saftey feature for a conical load. I have always liked the idea of a heavy conical but was always concerned about them moving off the charge without knowledge of it. I have never even seen an overcard. It's used to hold the shot in the bore with a smoothbore; right?

I would like to try it but wanted to see if others have already done it. This would be a .50 caliber rifled barrel. Do they make over the shot cards for a .50 caliber?

 

[necchi]

I wouldn't try it.
I'd be concerned that a "card" might tip and wedge it'self against a conical shaped bullet and stop being an handy thing to hold the conical in place and become something we call
an "obstruction" instead, :idunno:

there is plenty of advise on the forum about "paper patch" being used with conicals.
A paper patch is a thin like cigarette paper type wrapped around the conical to increase diameter, the increased diameter helps hold a conical in place and aids rifling contact and spin.

I mean to each his own, But I wouldn't do it.

 

[nkbj]

If you are thinking about the Lee REAL, got a sneaking suspicion that a very thin patch around the bottom ring only would work.

 

[M. De Land]

I have a rifle made just for shooting heavy conicals in .58 cal. The mold I made for it drops a maxi that weighs 620 grains and with a 150 grain charge of 2F it will almost make your shoulder blades slap together from behind. Hard to believe all that powder can be burned in the short ,heavy 26 inch octagon barrel but it seems to be the case. The chronograph says 1400 fps but I seriously doubt it. I need to test it again with my new Oehler 35P.
I'm careful to never let the muzzle sink below level while carrying it.
I ringed a .50 TC with a maxi 30 years ago. Mike D.

 

[roundball]

I used that approach with T/C .45cal Maxi-Hunters years ago, and again last year experimenting with member 'oldnamvet's' custom .40cal REAL.
In the case of the .40cal, I didn't have any OS cards to fit so I used a .45cal OxYoke felt wad wedged down on top.
Both approaches worked perfectly.

 

[Billnpatti]

There are cards or wads for .50 caliber rifles but you do not need them for use on top of conical bullets. If you are using the correct size bullets or conicals, they will fit tightly enough in your bore that they will not move off the powder. If your conicals move off the powder, you are not using the correct size and probably not even the correct caliber. Bullets or conicals moving off the powder charge is not anything to worry about so wads are not necessary on top of the conical. Many people choose to use a wad over the powder (but under the bullet) to provide an additional gas seal and some additional lubrication but you do not need a wad on top of your conical. One caveat about using OP wads for conicals is to never use an OP wad if you are using a conical bullet that has a skirt such as the old style mini balls that were used in military muskets. These conicals fit loosely into the bore and depended on the hot expanding gasses to expand the skirt into the lands and grooves of the bore. If you use an OP wad with these mini balls, it will prevent the gasses from expanding the skirt of the mini ball and will cause it to be inaccurate. If you want to use OP wads with your conicals, use them only with those conicals that have the flat bases. This is the only use for wads with either conicals or patched round balls.

 

[Barry Duggan]

Never could keep a great plains maxi from moving off the powder in my 45cal.

 

[BrownBear]

Bud of mine solves his loose conical concerns by wrapping them with enough layers of teflon plumbing tape. Works great.

I've never had an issue with "migrating" conicals, but I have never hunted with them either. But lots of banging and thumping at the range hasn't managed to dislodge them in my guns. That includes banging the muzzled straight down hard onto a hunk of wood, followed by a push with ramrod to see if the conical moved. Nope.

But that's my guns with my conicals, and no indication whatsoever how yours will act.

 

[Billnpatti]

Do you have your gun on half cock when you load it to allow the air in the bore to escape and then wait just a few seconds after seating the bullet and use the ram rod to be sure that the compressed air under the bullet hasn't pushed it off the powder? This is a good procedure for seating any of the projectiles whether a conical or a patched round ball.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I'm careful to never let the muzzle sink below level while carrying it.

That still sounds like a very risky concept to me. Any slight stumble or distraction that muzzle could go down and the projectile slide forward. IMHO, scary and dangerous technique. :shocked2:

 

[jamesthomas]

Just use a round ball for *&^% sake. if your worried a conical will move off the powder. A .50 cal. round ball will kill most any animal in North America. :2 or 3 cents worth.

 

[roundball]

Be that as it may, the OP's question was about conicals.
:wink:
Bottom line is it's obviously been known to happen enough to be a condition that can occur, for which a warning has been in place for at least as long as I've been in muzzleloading, and I assume longer.

You can even "feel" how loose a conical is when seating it...once it's driving band has been punched through by the rifling, the weight of my brass ramrod is enough to seat it on down from gravity alone...and that's using T/C's own Maxi-Hunters in T/Cs own barrels.

Plus, I personally tested for it last year in my garage using the new .40cal REAL conical that became available through a Lyman custom mold built to factory specs, and got it to move forward off the powder charge in my Late Lancaster's .40cal GM barrel.

So for me, while I normally don't use conicals, rest assured I'll never use one without firmly wedging an OS card or an OxYoke felt wad down on top of it. There might be a lot of reasons why I might ruin a barrel some day, but one of them won't be because a conical moved off the power charge and became a bore obstruction.

Everyone else can roll the dice as they please of course...

 

[Barry Duggan]

Yes sir, the gun would be on half cock. Like we discussed in pm's, I now know my bore is loose. Once they passed beyond the front band, there was little to no resistance down the remainder of the bore. For the short period of time I used them, I learned to never fire a shot without running my ramrod down there first. Thanks to all the good stuff I've read on this forum, I have developed a good prb load, and no longer have any desire to shoot conicals. Like I told you, this was many years ago, and I had little to no help in the ways of muzzleloading...ignorance is not always bliss. Barry

 

[M. De Land]

The maxi's I have are snug when being seated in the bore. Actually all one has to do is foul the barrel, re- load and clean ahead of the conical with a damp patch and your set for the day.
I've not had a conical move ahead after loading in this gun but as I said I'm careful not to let the muzzle point downward while using it.
I like he teflon tape idea and will have to test it. Mike D.

 

[Walks with fire]

I have a couple 1/28 twist GM flint .50 caliber barrels that shoot really well with the Hornady Great Plains bullets and they are just loose enough to move off the charge. I don't like to hunt with a fouled barrel so I had been using a 1 wrap paper patch to make it fit snug and it shot ok and I feel safe it will stay on the charge.

I just thought that the Over card might work ok and it would save all the wrapping bullets and they would have more lube on them that way. It would be easier.

The Hornady Great Plains packaged bullet shoots really well and they are cheap. I think if it was another .0015 dia. it would stay on the charge and still be able to load it. I am sure a similiar conical could be purchased and may shoot as well. I sure do like the Hornady bullet from those barrel though and they hit a solid target with some force; it's a big heavy bullet.

 

[Walks with fire]

I do most of the time. I like shooting a rb for deer hunting here in PA. and they work fine. Nothing bad to say about conical either. I don't want to know which one works better than the other. I just want to know if it's safe to shoot with a over card on top.

The conical vs. roundball debate is something else all together. I know which one I think has more raw power.

 

[Walks with fire]

I like the idea of the teflon tape wrap. Does teflon tape come in different thickness? For some reason I think I have seen some that is really thin. It should work just dandy. I gotta try some that's for sure. Thanks for the heads up on it.

I seem to have this stange urge to take my deer with big conicals this year for something diffent from the roundball. Got nice doe last year with .490 ball.

 

[nkbj]

My urge is a small diameter. Forty caliber paper patched that I've been making are thumb tight and absolutely are not going to move until the second trigger is caressed.

 

[Billnpatti]

I have shot the T/C MaxiBall and the R.E.A.L. bullets in both my T/C and in my GPR and never had a problem with either of them ever moving off the powder but the Teflon tape idea really has peaked my interest. I don't need it to keep either projectile in place, they stay there for me but I am thinking the Teflon tape might be an interesting lube alternative. After all, there is Teflon coated patching material for round balls and it seems to have a following among some shooters. I feel pretty sure that it will require a wiping patch between shots that I don't now need but I am always interested in trying a new lube to see if it might give a slight tightening effect on my groups. Some ideas work and some fail but nothing ventured, nothing gained. We'll see how this idea works for me.

 

[BrownBear]

Its' funny, but I first heard of the teflon tape here on this site a few years back. If I recall correctly it came up in a discussion of teflon coated patches that match shooters were using with RB's and someone talked about using it on minies.

I passed it along to a friend, and he's tried it with great success.

As for thickness, there are at least two varieties available locally- a white one and a yellow one for use with propane/natural gas plumbing. My bud sezz the yellow is a little thicker, but I haven't miked either.