Appropriate cylinder gap for Colt revolvers

[M. De Land]

If the shoe fits....

Well then may I suggest not tuning in to the discussion.

 

[45D]

Well Rugers are

Are not Rugers, Smith and Wesson, Dan Wessons , Cattlemen 73 clones and a number of other designs not closed frame guns that handle mag pressure?

So, where do you draw the line?

A Ruger New Vaquero won't handle mag loads . . . but it's a Ruger.
Many S&W's and a Cattlemen won't handle 454 Casull. A Ruger Blackhawk won't handle 454 Casull . .
You're picking and choosing and I'm testing a platform. What about a Taurus 38sp? It won't handle 357 mag . . . they're both top strap revolvers. Your idea of a "one size fits all" is ludicrous.!! How can anybody take you seriously?
Really? If it's got a top strap, it can shoot magnums. . . . you're the only person I've ever seen say that and apparently mean it . . . and you're a "gun guy".

 

[45D]

Oh, and your the arbitrator of what is unsound opinion right, sounds a lot like "criticizem" to me.

HAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
But YOU are???

 

[45D]

BTW, you're repeating the same silly things you always resort to. " Top strap revolvers can handle mag loads.

Hey!!! Red cars are fast !!!

Mike

 

[dickydalton]

I have a silver/gray Corvette that I can take toe top strap off of and beat your red car!

 

[M. De Land]

So, where do you draw the line?

A Ruger New Vaquero won't handle mag loads . . . but it's a Ruger.
Many S&W's and a Cattlemen won't handle 454 Casull. A Ruger Blackhawk won't handle 454 Casull . .
You're picking and choosing and I'm testing a platform. What about a Taurus 38sp? It won't handle 357 mag . . . they're both top strap revolvers. Your idea of a "one size fits all" is ludicrous.!! How can anybody take you seriously?
Really? If it's got a top strap, it can shoot magnums. . . . you're the only person I've ever seen say that and apparently mean it . . . and you're a "gun guy".

For a design strength comparison name even one open frame revolver that will handle 40 K magnum loads ! Your moving the goal post again !

 

[M. De Land]

BTW, you're repeating the same silly things you always resort to. " Top strap revolvers can handle mag loads.

Hey!!! Red cars are fast !!!

Mike

Never said that at all, what I said is magnum loads are not suitable for use in open frame revolvers.
All magnum pressure level cartridges are used in solid frame revolvers and rifles and never in open frame revolvers.
Facts are stubborn little critters ............... no ?

 

[wiscoaster]

Just curious about what the gap should be. My Uberti 1862 pocket police is at around 8 to 9 thousandths. That’s with the arbor properly shimmed to length because of course it was too short! And that is measured with hammer down on a fully assembled revolver.

Was answered on the first page.

 

[Gun Tramp]

That’s with the arbor properly shimmed to length because of course it was too short!

A bit off-topic here, but does anyone know with certainty why Uberti/Benelli/Beretta produces their revolvers with a short arbor?

 

[1stnamebassist]

Was answered on the first page.

Ahh, that was the first post! I started the thread!

 

[Malamute]

I've already posted that the frame will probably NOT make it to mag loads. I'm just looking for where it "will" show problems. Never said anything about mag pressure. I do believe Dragoons may actually get "there" though!!! What?!!!!
We'll see.

Mike

In the 1980s Clarence Bates, an old school gunsmith in Sedona Az made some Dragoon type pistols entirely from scratch, in several caliber to include 30-30. I saw several of them, but have zero knowledge of how long they would last in regular use. They were fine in his basic testing but i dont believe he shot much quantity of rounds through them. Ive not seen any mention of them online, who knows where they ended up. He embedded a shell head in the barrel lug to identify the caliber of the guns.

You're wrong.
A Colt SAA isn't recommended for +p loads. Neither is Pietta SAA copies and many others.
The same applies to revolvers chambered in 45acp.

What in the world makes you think any top strap revolver can handle mag ammo?

I will suggest that is dependent on the chambering, meaning cylinder wall thickness in 45 cal, more than frame capability. The Colt SAA does fine in 357 magnum cal, and has done fine with the old keith heavy loads in 44 spl. The original Colt SAA frame, and an early one, was the base gun used by Cassul in developing the 454, though with a 5 shot cylinder that placed the locking bolt notches offset from the chambers, and was likely a better grade of steel and heat treatment than the standard Colt SAA cylinders.

So, where do you draw the line?

A Ruger New Vaquero won't handle mag loads . . . but it's a Ruger.
Many S&W's and a Cattlemen won't handle 454 Casull. A Ruger Blackhawk won't handle 454 Casull . .
You're picking and choosing and I'm testing a platform. What about a Taurus 38sp? It won't handle 357 mag . . . they're both top strap revolvers. Your idea of a "one size fits all" is ludicrous.!! How can anybody take you seriously?
Really? If it's got a top strap, it can shoot magnums. . . . you're the only person I've ever seen say that and apparently mean it . . . and you're a "gun guy".

The Ruger Blackhawk, the old full size one, will handle Cassul level loads with a 5 shot cylinder. John Linebaugh built 5 shot guns on the standard Blackhawk frames for very heavy loads. I know they took Cassul level loads, as I fired some while he chronographed them. His large caliber conversions had the frame window opened up some so the cylinder could be a little larger, I dont recall the specific numbers, but .020" sort of rings a bell in my memory. Whether that was the increased diameter size or how much he took out of each side of the frame window, i dont recall, it was the early 90s when I talked to him about it.

Frame material, if forged or cast, how heat treated, all will play a part in how a frame handles pressure and how long it will do it. Blow-ups arent generally a frame issue, they only let go after a cylinder does. The main issue with frames is how long they last with heavier loads before stretching and having issues with that.

I have no dog in this kerfuffle, just some points of order or information.

 

[wiscoaster]

Ahh, that was the first post! I started the thread!

I just hope you got your answer without all the subsequent irrelevancies.

 

[Malamute]

I just hope you got your answer without all the subsequent irrelevancies.

Sometimes the subsequent off topic discussions are even more interesting than the original topic.

 

[45D]

Off topic huh ?!!! Be careful, some folks are a little sensitive . . .
It's more than likely a combination of ignorance and production expediency.

Pietta made the change but they have one basic layout.

Mike

 

[Tyler L]

A bit off-topic here, but does anyone know with certainty why Uberti/Benelli/Beretta produces their revolvers with a short arbor?

Not certain, but speculating:

It all depends on their process/work flow/equipment, but maybe they feel their scrap rate will be too high if they have to hold tolerance on the arbor length & barrel hole depth.
Or maybe they feel they can't devote enough time or manpower to fitting the two pieces: One way is inspecting and sorting their arbors and barrels by undersize/oversize tolerance and having the assemblers select the right combination. Another way is to make all the arbors long and hand fit them. Either way takes time, and let's face it, the majority of Uberti buyers don't care that the arbor is short.

 

[45D]

In the 1980s Clarence Bates, an old school gunsmith in Sedona Az made some Dragoon type pistols entirely from scratch, in several caliber to include 30-30. I saw several of them, but have zero knowledge of how long they would last in regular use. They were fine in his basic testing but i dont believe he shot much quantity of rounds through them. Ive not seen any mention of them online, who knows where they ended up. He embedded a shell head in the barrel lug to identify the caliber of the guns.

I will suggest that is dependent on the chambering, meaning cylinder wall thickness in 45 cal, more than frame capability. The Colt SAA does fine in 357 magnum cal, and has done fine with the old keith heavy loads in 44 spl. The original Colt SAA frame, and an early one, was the base gun used by Cassul in developing the 454, though with a 5 shot cylinder that placed the locking bolt notches offset from the chambers, and was likely a better grade of steel and heat treatment than the standard Colt SAA cylinders.

The Ruger Blackhawk, the old full size one, will handle Cassul level loads with a 5 shot cylinder. John Linebaugh built 5 shot guns on the standard Blackhawk frames for very heavy loads. I know they took Cassul level loads, as I fired some while he chronographed them. His large caliber conversions had the frame window opened up some so the cylinder could be a little larger, I dont recall the specific numbers, but .020" sort of rings a bell in my memory. Whether that was the increased diameter size or how much he took out of each side of the frame window, i dont recall, it was the early 90s when I talked to him about it.

Frame material, if forged or cast, how heat treated, all will play a part in how a frame handles pressure and how long it will do it. Blow-ups arent generally a frame issue, they only let go after a cylinder does. The main issue with frames is how long they last with heavier loads before stretching and having issues with that.

I have no dog in this kerfuffle, just some points of order or information.

Yep, I'm testing the frame.
Mr. De Land wants me to blow up the cylinder. The cylinder isn't built for 40K + . Not many are . . .

Its funny how Walt Kirst and Kenny Howell have been selling smokeless conversion cylinders for these revolvers for roughly 20 yrs. These frames are obviously good enough for tier 1 ammo, the intro of the 45acp changed things a little with 21K ( tier 2 for .45 cal) being the "new norm". So I announce I'm testing the frame so others can learn something. Certain folks aren't interested in knowing just how good a design the Colt Open-top platform is and thats totally fine. I and others though would like to know where the limit might be. And then we have a couple of folks that just can't stand that the Open-top platform is as good as it is and is at least as "good" as the Remington . . . which is the only revolver I've bent shooting/ loading . . . I've only sheared screws loading on the open-top.

Mike

 

[1stnamebassist]

Ahh, that was the first post! I started the thread!

I just hope you got your answer without all the subsequent irrelevancies.

I did, but I don’t want to interrupt the comraderee!

 

[wiscoaster]

Sometimes the subsequent off topic discussions are even more interesting than the original topic.

Maybe, but they do no service to the OP.

They could just start a new topic. Maybe it would turn into the longest running thread in this forum's history.

 

[wiscoaster]

I did, but I don’t want to interrupt the comraderee!

Well, it wasn't exactly comraderee and maybe needed interruption.

These two guys mainly involved have a history of hijacking threads for their own disputes over matters not answering the OP's question, and frankly, I have to wonder about the moderation policies in this forum.

But ... every forum has it's own personality, so live and let live, I suppose, so long as moderation is applied evenly.

I'm a newbie here, so remains to be seen ......

 

[wiscoaster]

...Be careful, some folks are a little sensitive . . .

Well, don't leave yourself out of the sensitive crowd.