50 cal not hitting broadside of barn

[Grenadier1758]

I think he has the GPR Hunter with the 1 in 32" twist and shallow rifling. The REAL conical is oversize to fill through rifling on loading. It should work.

I would be checking the sights for looseness.

Some folks like bore butter and some despise it. It can gum up the bore if used as a rust inhibitor for storage. All that storage goo has to be cleaned out of the barrel before shooting or accuracy goes to a very bad place. Use a tight fitting cleaning patch with rubbing alcohol to clean it out. While you are at it use a 30 caliber brush and alcohol dampened patch to clean the chamber at the breech. Run a pipe cleaner from the nipple seat to the breech chamber.

If you are getting varying results on your twist measurements, you need a tighter cleaning patch to engage the shallow rifling.

From you description, either your bullet is skipping over the lands or the sight is loose.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Welcome to the wonderful world of "What the h..."?
A lot of things can affect accuracy/grouping with a muzzle gun. The last tool you should pick up for adjustments is the file. :nono:
There are many threads on the subject of finding the best load for your rifle. Do check out Dutch Scholz' booklet for great expert advice.
You need to tell us more about what you are shooting. e.g. size ball, type of patching, lube, powder, charge, how you hold yer mouth, whatever.

 

[yonderin]

A .490 will work. The advantage to using a .495 is that you'll likely find a good tight fitting ball/patch combo sooner.
As a substitute to buying different patch thicknesses, you can use cigarette paper to "shim" a little bit from a thinner to thicker patch until you determine the thickness you need. But if you did buy different thicknesses, you can use them for cleaning/swabbing patches. I bought about 4 different thicknesses, they'll all get used up somehow, sometime, some way.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I realize it doesn't matter what I shoot if I don't know where the bullets going.

Then you need bigger targets or a spotter.
You also need group sizes.

I recommend you also have someone else (Experienced)shoot the gun

I also suspect your bore might be fouled with lead from shooting real bullets.

Has the gun ever shot well?

 

[azmntman]

So far we have ignored FLINCH. I would say you need to have a buddy prime or not prime w/o you knowing whether the gun is gonna fire or not and see just how bad your flinching due to a small explosion in your face.

I have yet to hear of a Lyman shooting that bad.

DITCH the bore butter in the bore. MAYBE as a patch lube but dont ever coat the bore with it. Clean, DRY and then use a nice gun oil or 3-1 or barricade or bear grease or whatever but bore butter is often discussed here as a problem not problem solver.

As mentioned have an expeierneced flint shooter shoot t. Try 3o gr powder and a tight patched round ball. Use pillow ticking (make yer own or buy un lubed) and put a little bit of that bore butter on a patch and rub it in. fast twist can shoot PRB ok if low powder charges.

Also for the conicals GET HORNADY GREAT PLAINS 385 gr bullets. and use a felt or card board over powder wad. Have never heard bad about these, you may find a better gropuing bullet later when yer getting ready to zero it in.

Read these posts and try only one thing at a time and you'll hit that deer in the boiler room next year (unless like me this year he is a record book and you fall to pieces :redface: )

 

[MSW]

Late to the party, but here's my 'two cents worth:'

you are on the right path - stick with patched round ball for now. the 'bullet' type projectiles are an offering to novices who don't believe that a prb will go right through Bambi in pretty much any broadside shot. this was, if memory serves, a marketing ploy by Thompson Center in the late seventies or early eighties to bring the centerfire crowd into muzzle loading as a way to extend their hunting time by going for the 'primitive season,' and these folks didn't know very much about how to shoot a muzzle loader. the "REAL" bullet was designed to need no patch, and will theoretically shoot straight with a 1:48 twist. thus, the shallower rifling. i would advise you to skip the whole bullet thing and use what was originally intended: PRB ... your rifle is more than capable of turning Bambi into little white packages without modern day doo- dads or gee- haws.

i have mixed feelings about the way Thompson Center brought a huge number of M/L rifles into the market. one the one hand, i'm grateful to them: but for their work, i might never have discovered the sport. On the other hand, there is a learning curve to this deal which is much longer and much morepotentially frustrating than figuring out how to shoot, for instance, a bolt action center fire rifle. therefore, a would suspect that the reason i was able to buy my first flintlock for a song (and a badly sung one at that) was that the previous owner was so furious at it that he or she put it on the counter and said "just give me twenty bucks so i can get out of here..." thus, a cheap gun and a new blackpowder addict. i was lucky to meet an old guy at the range. he looked at my sorry excuse for a target and said, "your follow through isn't there, you're snapping your shot, you're probably blowing out patches, and you.re shooting an agate flint. By the way, your haircut s%$#..."

i was agast ... how could he know that about my haircut?! i was at the rod&gun club range at Ft Bragg ... what haircut??? we all wore 'high and tight' ... What???? but i digress...

he was right... i went home and did 'dry fire' drills for a week in my living room - just put a dot on a 3x5 card on the wall ... cock in the 'fired' position (all the way forward), set the rear trigger, take aim, gently squeezed the front trigger until it released, and then held the sight picture for three or four seconds. lower the rifle and relax ... repeat ... after a while, my shoulder started to hurt and i realised that this wasn't abnormal - it was the usual 'getting in shape' pain. i was using muscle groups which were being asked to do something they usually didn't do, and i was building up muscle strength and muscle memory. so, in summary:

stick with patched round ball
follow Mr. Schoultz' method
practice dry firing, with special attention to follow through
avoid the "miracle" this or the "magic" that - just another way to separate you from you hard earned, overtaxed, God- entrusted dollars
i would use FFFg for both primer and main charge (you can prime with FFFg if you want, but i don't.



good luck, and make good smoke! :grin:

 

[Micah Clark]

There is some great advice on this thread. I may not be able to add much, but the key question in all of this was asked about mid way through.

The Lyman GPR is a wonderful rifle. I own a LH 50 in flint, and it's very accurate. I have taken two deer with it, and I am a fairly novice shooter with less than 10 years experience and like every hunter, I don't shoot enough at the range.

However, the KEY question asked was "Is this the GPR or the GPR Hunter?" The hunter is a totally different barrel designed for conicals and sabots. . something I know very little about, but a design that is really made for the 100 yard deer hunt.

The loads for these two rifles are night and day different. Patched round balls in a hunter with 1:32 rifling will be worthless. . just as a sabot or conical in a 1:60 GPR would be worthless and not fun to load.

If you have the regular GPR, I'd start with 70 grains of Goex 3f or perhaps 80 of 2f (I haven't tested 2f much). . . and a .15 pillow ticking shooting patch, and a 490 ball. That should get you easily on paper at 25 yards . . . I use Hoppes BP solvent, but bore butter worked too, though I don't like it as much for patch lube. . both are easy to find. I usually use a felt wad too because I don't want the BP lube soaking into the powder while in the field all morning, but that's perhaps more mental preference than real need.

For me about 80 grains of 3f will get me out to about 70-75 yards . . I have shot 90 also . . . that will take it a little farther . . interestingly, for me 70-90 doesn't change my accuracy all that much. . .the gun shoots well no matter what most of the time . . which is good for someone like me still learning a lot. . but that being said I am grouping inside the size of a coffee cup . . . not satisfactory for my .32 squirrel rifle but fine for deer. Pro's and old timers here could probably easily group this rifle in shots of 3 the size of a ping pong ball at 75 yards off a bench.

 

[nwtradegun]

you would then have the Classic, traditional looks with modern spec fast twist barrel.

The Great Plains Hunter model features a fast, 1 in 32" shallow groove rifled barrel. It's ideal for shooting the many types of modern projectiles available to today's black powder hunter, such as heavier conical bullets and sabots. The Great Plains Hunter rifle has all of the high quality features of our Classic Great Plains rifle. It is also pre-drilled and tapped for the optional 57 GPR receiver sight for the Great Plains rifle.
use lead bulles.
bullets, .50 caliber, Hornady Great Plains, 385 grain, pure lead, hollow base, hollow point, per 20

bullets, .50 caliber, Hornady Great Plains, 385 grain, pure lead, hollow base, hollow point, per 20

 

[rdstrain49]

Agreed, so far I'm not certain which rifle we are talking about. I may have missed it, but I also not certain if OP is shooting offhand or off a bench. If offhand I'd not be surpriced a flintlock novice couldn't hit the proverbial broad side etc.

More data please.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I believe the bullet is becoming unstable somewhere between 25 and 50.

Unlikely...but easy to verify by placing targets every 10 yards.

 

[coloradoclyde]

and started 2 file my front sight as well as adjusted for windage.

Is the back sight adjustable for elevation?
If so where was it when you started filing?

 

[F.G. Ford]

Hello again Casem4,
The first post that I made, assumed that you had a Lyman Great Plains rifle, which is primarily a round ball gun.
Like the other posters have said the Lyman Great Plains Hunter, is a different gun all together.
They look the same, but they are DIFFERENT!
You have received great advice, now you have to filter it out.
There must be a traditional black powder group in your area.
But first, tell us which rifle you do have.
It is marked on the barrel.
Once we know, we can dump tons of suggestions to use.
Oh! By the way, go get some more 3f powder.
You're going to need it.
Seriously, as you can see, there are some mighty good people here on this great site, more than willing to help out.
Minie balls ( bullets ) have discouraged more people with black powder guns than there are blades of grass.
Up here in Canada there are few pawn shops that sell black powder guns.
In good ol'e USA there are many, and many of them have lots of rifles like the Lyman that won't shoot well. Do I hear bargain?
Simply put, there is no commercially made black powder gun, than the Lyman BP guns.
There are more exact copies of originals, but they are not produced by the hundreds as the Lyman is.
So do your home work and tell us where you are, and what you have.
You do have to get Dutch's booklet. And NO, I do not get a commission.
Fred

 

[54ball]

I think you the shooter deserves the "benefit of the doubt".

So what would make this rifle basically behave like a new gun every time it goes to the range?....does fair.....next shoot, does good.....next shoot does poorly....does fair....does good .....does poorly and so on.
It acts like a different gun every time you shoot the dang thing.
:hmm:
One answer...
Wandering zero.
What causes a wandering zero?
Usually it's mechanical.

Candidate #1.
The absolutely atrocious GPR rear sight. This thing uses a tiny coil spring and susceptible to rust specs and gnat damage....any movement....the thing will move side to side up and down at the blink of an eye.
New rifle every time....well ....it will do that if the rear sight moves.
Ever wonder why these rifles come with a extra primitive rear sight?
Remedy....replace the rear adjustable sight with the included primitive sight.
Candidate #2.
Related to equipment or component and the shooter as well...
The Patridge style black sights. Simply put, you can't hit what you can't see. I freaken hate those Patridge sights.

Since it has a miserble sight picture designed for the 6 o clock hold at a Fixed distance it is nearly useless for a dead center hold in any kind of shade. Those with 20 year old eyesight may ... may can do well but with this style sight, the eye searches for a picture and it may be different from shot to shot. Black on black worked well for Johnny Cash but for open general use rifle sights?? Not the best if there's stuff like say ..... trees and clouds around.
Remedy...
Paint the back of the front sight white, red or silver.

Candidate #3.
Projectiles not stable.
Conicals shot with too low a charge...
Round ball shot with too high a charge...
This is assuming you have the 1-32 or 24 twist barrel.

Candidate #4.

Hold...yep still mechanical
This rifle has a crescent butt with a good bit of drop. This rifle is designed for off hand shooting. Trying to shoot one like a bench rifle can be painful experience. Been there, done that with the two bloodshot bruises to prove it.
Shooting the rifle off the bench requires a more upright stance. You need to build up the prop so you can shoot off hand ....from the bench.
If the hold is not for one comfortable and two consistent you could have a wandering zero.

 

[Center_shot]

Wonder if he has a barrel bulge? When running a patch down the barrel are there any spots where the patch runs free? You are looking for consistent drag on the ramrod and patch the full length of the barrel.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Try shooting at the barn from the inside.

 

[Dr5x]

I have just created a long skid mark when I learned that you have a more rapd twist than would be normal on the regular GReat Plains rifle.
Round balls have only a wee belt aroub their middle engaged in the rifling. It is felt that with a faster twist that very fragile engagement with the rifling would be ripped out when powered by your exploding powder charge.
The elongated projectile once it's extruded into the rifling has a lot stronger grip on those lands and groove and can tai a much quicker twist without being ripped out o that important rifling.
No then, , the one in 48 twist is a compromise twist supposedly suitable for bot bullet and round ball.
I have never read or seen any mention of how fast a twist the round can stand..
Your so called Muzzeloading in line rides have a fairly quick twist in the i in 30 area. I have had some inline riflemen who want to shoot round have some success by dropping the powder charge so that belt isn't so greatly damaged.. This is all rather touch stuff requiring much careful experimentation..

Yes a .490 ball can work ut just requires a somewhat thicker patch material. I prefer the .495 because it relies more on lead in the grooves than it relies on cloth patching

I;ve spent no time with elongated projectiles and hesitate advise on that type of rifle.

Dutch Schoultz

 

[mooman76]

Not much to add and your mind by now is probably going in many directions. I'm not saying your gun is but Lyman did make some guns with a 1/38 twist and you did say your twist fell between 1/32 and 1/48. Lee REALs often work best with an over powder wad. Also have you collected any patches after you fired them? That will tell you allot about what is going on when you have accuracy issues. Cut or destroyed patches will throw your accuracy way off. I also would drop the grains down to about 50 until you get your accuracy issues worked out. Then you can try moving up to heavier loads. Good luck!

 

[Danny Ross]

Okay I am not sure how you are measuring your rate of twist. The barrel is 32 inches, if you put a mark on your ram rod at either 12,3,6,or 9 position at the muzzle with a patch on the jag to hold it in the rifling. If the mark does one complete revolution when it is pushed from muzzle to breach then it is a 1:32 which is the Great Plains Hunter, if it only goes just past a half a revolution it is 1:60 the Great Plains Rifle, If it comes up just shy of one complete revolution it is more than likely the 1:38 Dutch mentioned. You don't mention what powder charge you are using, what powder, or granulation all of this can make a difference in your accuracy. Are you using the adjustable or the fixed sight that comes with the rifle? Most of us here use the fixed sight, but it is your choice. If it is the adjustable and you have it topped out as high as it will go you will need more than likely to to file the front sight. Another question is are you placing your head on the stock in the same position when you shoot? If not, with the dropped stock your line of sight will change each time in relationship with the sights. I am also assuming your are shooting off of a solid rest of some kind for consistency. I am just surprised that on a Lyman it doesn't show the rate of twist on the barrel. I know the ones I have do. The GPR and the GPH look exactly they same. DANNY

 

[Casem4]

I think you are miss understanding the file. Correct me if I'm wrong here but if I am shoot consistent at 25 yards 2 to 3 inches middle but low to center on paper filing g the front brings the placement up. This is why I filed. Was getting great groups but when I went to 50 yards wasn't even hitting paper. I understand lock flinch but put down over a dozen shots and only one even showed up on a 3 by 4 foot piece of cardboard. So filing is required...just can understand what is happening from 25 to 50 yards

 

[Casem4]

It always shot low at 50 average was about 8 to 12 inches low and usually to the left. But I adjusted the windage and just low. Decided to try and hone it in and now the problems at 50 but not 25.