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400 yard hits with a patched round ball

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Is this a discussion about whether ANYONE can make that shot at 400 yards or is it something about whether native peoples are as good a shot with a rifle as those of European ancestry?

More along the lines of the WEAPONRY of the Indians, especially the Eastern tribes, could be as good as anything carried by mainstream society, furthermore for many they were as much a rifle culture as were regular Americans of that era, had been for generations by that point.

Birdwatcher
 
I'm not saying there weren't, however most of those rifles had small sights, you can't raise the front sight high enough in the rear notch to aim at a 400 yard target- you start seeing the end of the barrel.

Unless you aim down the sights at some point above the guy's head, I had thought that was pretty self-explanatory.

So you would have to "guess the shot and if you miscalculate the range by ten feet at around 400 yards the bullet drop will cause you to miss the target.

I believe the term is "Kentucky windage", ie holding off of the target some predetermined distance to account for bullet trajectory and the prevailing winds.

One thing that soon becomes apparent in that same era in Texas is how quick the longrifles in the hands of the Americans (most from the rural South) pouring in earned a healthy respect from all their opponents; Indian, Tejano and Mexican alike. A frequent situation being riflemen on foot firing from cover (if available) at mounted opponents, often some distance away.

Imagine all the snap and almost instinctive decisions made by those riflemen pertaining to range, crosswinds and lead on irregularly moving targets.

Yet they knocked guys off of their horses, regularly.

In fact, I'd guess in MOST instances they were aiming at a point actually off of the target, holding over and to the left or right dependent upon the situation.

But then those riflemen had never shot a rifle that DID'NT have fixed sights shooting round balls.

Birdwatcher
 
The Dade Massacre was an ambush and I always thought it was in a wooded area.

It was, MOST of the engagements in the Seminole War were in thick cover, but not the Battle of Camp Izard.

As for the rest I had thought the usual way to shoot a longrifle is/was from a standing offhand, often steadied against a tree. The ones I've handled didn't seem to fit very well in a prone position.

Birdwatcher
 
Well it seems logical to me that a 400 yard hit on a man with a prb of 54 or 58 cal. would not be impossible but not likely. It certainly wouldn't be a common event. I would say that if one sat and shot at it for a while he would soon find the range but the wind is tricky. The wind is never constant nor does it always blow the same direction down range. As far as killing power goes, as long as the ball is in the air it can kill you.
 
I have been following this thread for some time and doubted the possibility of hitting anything at 400 yds.
Well, I tried it.....fired three shots at a 45 gallon barrel, and hit it twice, to my amazement. But sadly after doing so, I noticed that I had stretched my barrel a full 18".
After walking up to check my target to see my hits, there wasn't one mark on the barrel, but noticed that it was two o'clock on the church clock.......that had a bell :bull:

Fred
 
Not to keep on..but...I'm also wondering about the original quote on U.S. soldiers with the U.S. rifle not being able to hit anything at 125 yards. What rifle would that have been? Hall? I thought most of the soldiers had a version of the 1816 U.S. musket?

I believe that was true also.

There had been a variety of full-stock "contract rifles" produced by various makers for the US Govt. prior to 1800, and of course the famous half stock .54 cal. Harper's Ferry rifle and its minor variants beginning sometime in the first decade of the 1800's.

Sounds like Gaines could have had some of these in the mix, dunno the condition or quality of the guns and the ammo/powder. Perhaps not as well-cared for as privately owned weapons might be.

Birdwatcher
 
jerry huddleston said:
Well it seems logical to me that a 400 yard hit on a man with a prb of 54 or 58 cal. would not be impossible but not likely. It certainly wouldn't be a common event. I would say that if one sat and shot at it for a while he would soon find the range but the wind is tricky. The wind is never constant nor does it always blow the same direction down range. As far as killing power goes, as long as the ball is in the air it can kill you.


There is a video on You Tube that is currently popular. It shows a guy shooting a .22lr into a ballistic geletin block, covered with four layers of denim at 300 yards :shocked2: . The penetration and gel destruction are amazing. I have to agree, a lead ball, whether .45 cal. or .58 cal. will still be very dangerous if it is flying even at 400 yards.
 
The reason I was wondering is there is a re-enactment group on New Years Day each year that does the Dade Massacre and if you want to participate they send you a list of what equipment you need- it's been a while since I saw that list but I'm pretty certain you needed a 1816 type Musket. That's the main reason I was wondering about the rifle reference. It was my impression that the musket was the main long arm used.
On the 400 yard shot- still seems impossible to me but I'll have to think it over. On the 22 foot bullet drop at 400 yards- I would think a lot of that drop was right at the end. If you were off by 10 yards- I wonder what the difference in bullet drop would be.
 
Most infantry were armed with muskets. Until the introduction of the "rifled" musket which was supposed to replaced the smoothbore musket and the rifle, the army had special rifle troops armed with rifles. These special troops were armed with 1803s, 1814 pattern common rifles,Hall's and later 1841 Mississippis. The Mississippis were the last of the true muzzleloading rifles of the US Army before the rifled musket.
The rifled musket is similar to the M-14. The M-14 in theory was supposed to replace the submachine gun, carbine,Garand and BAR in one package just like the rifled musket was supposed to replace the rifle and smoothbore musket.
 
I have tried some long range shooting with a patched roundball. I actually hit a cutout of a British officer at a surveyed 234 yards with my Bess, one hit out of three shots. I was shooting off of a rest with 240 grains of 2F. I was lucky that there was a bare spot behind the officer and I could see where I was hitting. I managed to hit the target in the ankle.

I was at Friendship messing about on the silhouette range and decided to try my .54 long rifle at the 200 meter gongs. After about 3 or 4 shots that I could see kicking up dust, I was able to adjust my hold until I almost hit the 200 meter gong, missed by about a foot or two to the left.

I found that if there are trees behind the long range target that you are aiming at, that what you do is pick out a tree behind the target and start aiming at various branches until you arrive on target. Once you find your branch for distance then you can adjust for hitting the target.

Can I hit a man at 300 meters with a roundball, probably not. Could I hit one at 200 meters, yup. Could a 400 meter shot be made with a roundball. It would take an exceptional shot with a lot of patience and a dam good spotter with a telescope. But eventually, if the wind was calm and the target didn't notice the lead hail in his vicinity I guess it could happen.

There was a report of a shot by American Riflemen at a group of British officers. They saw the men, saw them drop down to take a prone shot and then one bullet dropped the horse that their orderly was riding. They moved away and had some troops scare off the shooters. Later they surveyed the distance and it was about 400 yards. Now the riflemen were taking a shot at a group of officers standing around with some on horseback, so they had a big target, but they did hit something.

Many Klatch
 
Every time I think about this I'm reminded of my 1000+ yard shot on a running coyote a few years back. It's a modern gun story, but bear with me cuzz the muzzleloader story follows.

We had just rode out of the foothills onto a flat plain pushing a handful of cattle ahead of us, when a coyote jumped in front of the herd- maybe 200 yards out. I was carrying an open sighted Ruger Mini-14 in a scabbard for my saddle gun.

I unlimbered it quick, and tried walking my shots in on the coyote rapidly departing in an arc out front of us, the hits plainly visible in dust spouts. I was getting near the bottom of the 30-round clip when the coyote rolled. Can't say for sure how far it really was, but it took us 10 minutes on horseback to get up to him. By the time I hit him I was holding over him something like 30 feet and ahead maybe 200 feet.

When we got there the bullet hole was square in the top of his head and the exit was below his jaw bone. That little pill was going more down than out when it landed.

The funny part was the young hired hand we had with us. He said "Man, I gotta get me one of those Rugers!" He's carrying one now, and still calls it his 1000 yard coyote gun, happy to tell one and all what a great shot I am! :rotf:

Now the muzzleloading parallel. Three of us were hunting deer together, and the long day wasn't going well. Any deer we saw were way out in the open and moving fast.

One of my buds was thoroughly frustrated and launched a .570 ball in the general direction of a 300+ yard running doe. And a second or so later, she absolutely rolled and piled up in a heap. Boy, was he ever embarrassed for taking the shot!

The third member of our party stood there with his mouth hanging open, then said "Man, I gotta get one of those 58 calibers!"

Sure long range hits can happen, but it's kinda like a trip to Vegas: Pack your money in your suitcase and your clothes in your wallet, and you'll still run out of money before you run out of clothes. :rotf:
 
Since these might well be the longest observed hits with a patched round ball, its worth looking into the background of the author of those claims.

Immediate response from many here has been that he was just "making it up". Indeed, prior to looking him up on the 'net, I too had never heard of Edmund Gaines, and presumed he was just some minor officer.

Far from it, turns out Edmund Pendleton Gaines was one of the great unsung heroes of our country, involved in pretty much all of our major national events in his nearly sixty year-long career...
http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fga03

GAINES, EDMUND PENDLETON (1777”“1849). Edmund Pendleton Gaines, United States soldier, was born in Culpeper County, Virginia, on March 20, 1777, the son of James and Elizabeth (Strother) Gaines. The family moved to North Carolina at the end of the American Revolution and soon thereafter to Tennessee. After service as a lieutenant in a local militia company, Gaines was commissioned as an ensign in the Sixth United States Infantry (Tennessee) on January 10, 1799.

In March of that year he was promoted to second lieutenant; he was honorably discharged on June 15, 1800. He rejoined the army as a second lieutenant in the Fourth United States Infantry on February 16, 1801, and transferred to the Second Infantry in April 1802.

He was promoted to first lieutenant that month and to captain on February 28, 1807. During this period he surveyed a road from Nashville to Natchez, served as military collector of Mobile, and commanded the garrison at Fort Stoddert. He was involved in the arrest of Aaron Burr and presented testimony for the prosecution at his trial. Gaines subsequently took an extended leave of absence and began practicing law in Mississippi Territory but returned to the army at the beginning of the War of 1812.

On March 24, 1812, he was appointed major of the Eighth Infantry and on July 6, 1812, lieutenant colonel of the Twenty-fourth Infantry. From March 1813 until March 1814 he was colonel of the Twenty-fifth Infantry. His regiment especially distinguished itself at the battle of Chrysler's Field in 1813. He served as adjutant general of the army from September 1, 1813, through March 9, 1814, and at the same time was commander of Fort Erie, Upper Canada


Specific to the Battle of Fort Erie, wherein approximately half of the 2,500 man defending American force were killed, wounded or missing before it was over. Gaines was disabled during the fight by an exploding shell...

In the fort, General Gaines ordered his men to stand to. This produced rumblings from the troops forced to stand in their positions in heavy rain but would prove invaluable in the coming battle. He also ordered that the charges in all guns were to be drawn and replaced, ensuring the guns would not misfire through damp powder...

Of the nature of the fighting..

The attackers twice charged through a gap 7 feet wide between the two barrack buildings into the parade ground, but were unable to break into the barrack buildings and mess hall. The defenders in turn tried to recapture the northeast bastion but were driven back. General Drummond sent only two companies of the 1st Battalion of the Royal Scots to reinforce the attackers; they lost half their men and very few of them even reached the fort. After fighting swayed back and forth for nearly an hour, some Americans turned around an 18-pounder cannon on the rear redan and began to fire into the bastion less than 50 yards away. The British responded by turning one of the captured cannons around and knocking the American 18-pounder off its carriage.

With respect to his conduct during the Texas War for Independence; a skillfull political tightrope. Many US regulars were allowed to slip away to fight on the Texian side, and sources suggest that Houston had been intending to retreat clear to Nacodoches when Santa Anna by chance presented himself with a fraction of his army at San Jacinto.

Had Houston retreated to Nacodoches as planned, theory has it that the US military would have intervened.

Gaines commanded the southwest military division of the United States in 1836. His sympathies were with Texas, although he was prevented by his position from helping with the Texas Revolution. In accordance with neutrality laws, Secretary of War Lewis Cass ordered Gaines to post the Sixth Infantry at Fort Jesup, Louisiana, to prevent armed volunteers from the United States from entering Texas as volunteers for Sam Houston's army. A number of volunteer units crossed the Sabine River at Gaines Ferry, the property of his cousin James Gaines, despite the presence of the army.

Gaines's instructions forbade him to cross into Texas unless armed belligerents should threaten to violate United States territorial sovereignty. He was given discretion, however, to cross the Sabine River if Indian depredations should disturb the tranquility of the border. From Fort Jesup, therefore, he detached a regiment of dragoons to the east bank of the Sabine River with the implicit threat to the Cherokees that the tribe's interference with the Texas bid for political independence from Mexico would not be tolerated. He then dispatched Lt. Joseph Bonnell to the Caddo villages of east Texas to persuade them to remain at peace.

It was Bonnell who discovered the plot of Manuel Flores to incite the tribes to war against Texas. Gaines further strengthened the frontier by ordering the Sixth United States Infantry to Fort Jesup from Jefferson Barracks. He was absolutely forbidden to join cause directly with the Texas revolutionaries.

Having been falsely informed that 1,500 Indians and 1,000 Mexican cavalrymen were concentrated near Nacogdoches on the Old San Antonio Road, he advanced fourteen of his companies to the Louisiana-Texas frontier and called for a brigade of volunteers each from Louisiana, Arkansas, and Mississippi as well as a battalion from Alabama.

After the battle of San Jacinto, Gaines pulled back to Fort Jesup to await developments. Both Stephen F. Austin and Sam Houston urged him to cross the border and establish his headquarters at Nacogdoches. Gaines demurred, but called up an additional requisition of volunteers in the light of a rumored second Mexican invasion of Texas.


Of his conduct re: the Indian Removal issue while NOT sucking up....
http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/face/Article.jsp?id=h-3063

Gaines often expressed in private correspondence and in letters to his commanders in Washington the view that the U.S. government should deal with Native Americans fairly and humanely. He opposed removal and war and instead advocated converting them to Christianity and allowing them to join the military.

Throughout his career, Gaines supplied starving Native Americans with food, thoroughly investigated accusations of Native American violence rather than retaliating rashly, and refused to protect the rights of white squatters who settled on lands still held by Native Americans.

His views were contrary to Andrew Jackson's policies, however, creating animosity between the two. Gaines also quarreled publicly with General Winfield Scott about U.S. Native American policy, and as a result Gaines was denied promotion to major general despite aggressively campaigning for the position. Instead, Gaines shared command of the U.S. military's Eastern and Western Departments with Scott from 1821 to 1836.


Early 1836, at age fifty-nine, Gaines personally leads a 1,000 man expedition into the Florida boonies and cleans up the sad and decomposing remains of the Dade Fight ("massacre" seems a bit much).

Then, short of supplies, he purposefully takes the long way back with the express purpose of drawing contact with the hostiles.

He does, and engages them in place for the next eight days, staying in command despite the loss of two front teeth early to a ricocheting rifle ball (a thing which would have us rushing to the emergency room and an oral surgeon).

His plan was that another US force close by could also engage and decisively defeat the hostiles. The reason they do not is because of political infighting by his rival Gen. Winfield Scott.

When they DO arrive on the field, Gaines' chief complaint is that they had ruined the negotiations developing between himself and the Seminole leaders. Believable, given Gaines' prior history of even handed justice.

Scott removes Gaines from command and sends him to Louisiana where he brilliantly walks that particular Texian tightrope.

Gaines remained in service until his death in 1849 of cholera in New Orleans; a tough, honest SOB, and a brilliant one.

Anyhoo.... THIS is the guy that claimed those 400 shots were made.

I think he was in the habit of speaking the truth.

YMMV,
Birdwatcher
 
Last edited by a moderator:
"Ahem", the edit function has timed out.

I meant to close with....

Anyhoo.... THIS is the guy that claimed those 400 YARD shots were made.
 
I, and some others here, never claimed that the man lied about guys being hit be balls from 400 yards away.

My only point is that nobody has any idea whether those shots were aimed or by chance. There's just no way to know. Enjoy, J.D.
 
I tend to think of it like this. If the indians sat out there and took 100 shots at the sentry and they all missed no one would give it a second thought and we would never hear about it. But give them just one lucky shot and OMG, they can shoot us at 400 yds.
 
This has been an interesting thread and, being the swell and open minded chap that I am, I think maybe I'll change my mind on the subject. 400 yards is an incredibly long distance, far longer than I can shoot, but then again the claim isn't that every shot hit a sentry but that enough of them did to injure and sometimes kill. The info on the Brown Bess is excellent since it was a flintlock and musket versus rifle, and Gaines background is noteworthy.
 
Just another word about long range shots. At the Battle of Adobe Wells, one of the shooters with a 50 caliber suppository gun made a 1,500 yard one shot kill. There are a lot of current authorities that would like to disbelieve that fact, but it turns out that those particular obsolete blackpowder guns can be deadly out to 3,500 yards.

Moderators, I hope I didn't step on the rules too badly here. I just wanted to point out that even more recent shots are the subject of controversy because "everybody knows those old guns aren't any good". There are a lot of arm-chair experts that think nothing worth shooting existed before 1970.

Many Klatch
 
I have never read of any Indians combatants with that much ammunition to spare or waste on lob shots. It's just not how gorilla warfare was or is conducted, especially when out numbered and on the run with minimal re-supply available.
They got close , struck and melted into the forest to strike again when advantage was on their side. Mike D.
 
Indians had more powder and lead than is commonly believed
For many years during the Revolution and continuing through the war of 1812, Britain provided powder, lead, and weapons. As well as paying for scalps.
Allan Eckert covered this in the Frontiersman
 
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