2f or 3f?

[oneyeopn]

My owners manual for my .54cal TC Hawkens says to use 2f powder only, I have both. My wifes is a 45 caliber and it says to use 2f and use 3f for under 45cal. I have been reading and it seems a lot of you all with way more experience than I have are shooting 3f in your rifles even the 54cal. does it work better, I am trying to learn to shoot with my muzzle loaders, I have had them about 4 years and shoot them about 1 a month, they are in the mix with my other guns in rotation. Should I be using 3f in the 45cal. I noticed some people said their 54's liked 3f but were more accurate with 2f. I am just a newbie so please dont shoot the new guy. I did a search but ended up with more questions than answers.
thank you all very much! :surrender:

 

[cynthialee]

conventional wisdom seems to be that .50 is the caliber when you can use 3F or 2F anything bigger gets loaded with 2F and anything smaller gets 3F.

I have been using 3F in my .54 and it works fine and dandy. Could it work better with 2F? Probably but I am not competeing. I just need to be good enough to hit the general area of center mass on my targets.

 

[Zonie]

Welcome to the Forum.

cynthialee is right about the 'conventional wisdom' but a lot of shooters on the forum have found that conventional wisdom isn't always right.

Most have found that many of the .50 and .54 caliber guns not only shoot nicely with 3Fg powder but actually shoot better with it than they did with 2Fg powder.

Of course, there are similar guns that seem to be more accurate with 2Fg powder so you never know until you try some of each.

As for safety, there has been no reported damage or problem with shooting 3Fg in large bore guns to either the shooter or the gun.

Many have found that when they switch from 2Fg to 3Fg they need to reduce the powder load about 10-15 percent.

The 3Fg powder produces a higher velocity, grain for grain so by reducing the powder load it puts the projectiles velocity back where it was.

That higher 3Fg velocity comes with a increase in breech pressure so if you are shooting heavy slugs instead of patched roundballs, you might want to stick with the 2Fg powder.
Heavy slugs produce a lot of breech pressure and seem to benefit from the slower burning powder.

 

[oneyeopn]

thank you all for your information, I did find it ironic that the 2 people who posted first for my thread have native avatars, when I have my CDIB and Kansas American Indian Hunt/Fish/Furharvester license. My nephew and I went out this afternoon and shot my rifles. We both have major desires to take deer with the traditional rifles. I tried the 3f in my Hawken and I really liked the quicker firing it did appear to reduce the lock time. I did reduce the load but maybe not enough. I have a bunch of Maxi-Balls and conical bullets that I got when I received the rifles. I shoot lead balls and lube my patches with bore butter, I tried the maxi-balls and just wasn't impressed. I dont feel I need to throw 360gr of lead downrange. I feel way more comfortable with a patched ball and it feels more right to me. It is primitive season in Kansas and we have been practicing but like all my other rifles since I have retired I have jumped whole hog into shooting. I do all my own reloading but due to some breathing problems have no desire to cast but I would like to become more than proficient with my muzzle loaders, I had 3 deer tags for this season. My wife and I eat venison quite regularly and I attempt to fill the freezer every year. I have already take one during handicap season, she dressed out at 135lbs and I am bound and determined the next one will be with my TC Hawken and my last will be with my 45colt Lever action. thanks again I am sure I will have more questions as I start focusing more on my ML's than my other guns. :hmm:

 

[buford87]

If you listen to what your rifle is telling you it will let you know what it likes................watch yer top knot................

 

[Rifleman1776]

You have been well advised so far. The switch to 3Fg in larger calibers is a fairly recent thing. In the past the 'rule' was as you stated.
I would suggest you use the 2Fg for practice and casual shooting just because you have the investment made in it unless you have other uses for it.
Toss the maxi/bullets/etc. back into the casting pot. There is nothing in your state a round ball won't kill just as ded. Sticking with one projectile is important to knowing how and where your rifle is shooting.
You are making a good start. Enjoy.

 

[oneyeopn]

thank you very much, I am using pyrodex and have two cans of the 2f (R) and 1 of the 3f (P). So I will use up the 2f first. I wondered what I was going to do with the conical bullets there must be 5 lbs of them. So thanks I will stay with the Round Balls. :v

 

[oneyeopn]

I have spent the last couple of hours reading different things in the forum. I did not realize that Pyrodex is a no no. I have to drive 2 1/2 hours to buy powder for my reloading and will look for regular Black Powder. From my readings I take that it is not as corrosive as Pyrodex although I am religous about cleaning my rifles after shooting. I also leave them with a film of bore butter after cleaning. I have no pits and my barrels look great with no signs of corrosion. I am learning so much that I didnt know and want to thank you all for the help. One questions is what is HP/PC? It sounds like people I will probably offend so I would like to know before I offend any of them.

 

[cynthialee]

HC/PC
Historicaly correct and Period correct.

I see you have found Dans anti pyrodex campaign posts.
He has proven to me that it CAN cause serious issues. But these issues arise from improper cleaning methoods it would seem. The Hawken I own was shot exclusively with Pyrodex until I got it and the thing is in the best condition of any of my rifles. The old guy I bought it from took religous care of the firearm.
So if you take good care of your firearms then you have no worries.

Personaly I do not like pyrodex because it smells like the south end of Satan when it hits the cleaning bucket. BP has a smell to it that is no where near as foul. imho

 

[Zonie]

You didn't see me saying Pyrodex is a no-no.

We have one member who is adamantly against using Pyrodex for anything and uses every opportunity to expound on the horrors of using it.

I on the other hand have used Pyrodex for over 20 years in my caplock rifles and Cap & Ball pistols without seeing any signs of pitting, corrosion, etching or anything else in or on the barrels of the guns that fired it.

I do clean my guns within a few hours of shooting them using plain water and a bit of dish-washing detergent.
I used to use Birchwood Casey Sheath before it was replaced with the BC Barricade that I now use, to protect the bores from rust.

I have found that Pyrodex occasionally will get a slight delay in firing when compared with real black powder and of course, it doesn't work worth a damn in a flintlock.

 

[woodse guy]

I use Swiss 3f in my 62 cal smooth bore.

 

[1911nutjob]

You didn't see me saying Pyrodex is a no-no.

We have one member who is adamantly against using Pyrodex for anything and uses every opportunity to expound on the horrors of using it.

I on the other hand have used Pyrodex for over 20 years in my caplock rifles and Cap & Ball pistols without seeing any signs of pitting, corrosion, etching or anything else in or on the barrels of the guns that fired it.

I do clean my guns within a few hours of shooting them using plain water and a bit of dish-washing detergent.
I used to use Birchwood Casey Sheath before it was replaced with the BC Barricade that I now use, to protect the bores from rust.

I have found that Pyrodex occasionally will get a slight delay in firing when compared with real black powder and of course, it doesn't work worth a damn in a flintlock.

I agree with Zonie on all counts except one: I get flash rusting with pyrodex no matter how soon I clean my guns. I've tried adjusting soap concentration, water temperature, drying methods etc., but for me it has been unavoidable. I have two pounds of pyro left that I'm burning through, and then it's black from here on out. I will concede that I've had much better luck with pyrodex shelf life than others here; the trick is simply making sure the lid is screwed on tight. I don't hate pyro and will use it in a pinch, but goex or graf's (schuetzen) is my choice every time.

 

[ebiggs1]

My oldest muzzle loader is from the 1970's and has shot mostly Pyrodex over the years. Black Powder just occasionally because Pyrodex has always been right on the shelf. And the claims at first were more in favor of using it over BP.
It (the rifle) has received good attention 'most' of it's life, say 90% of the time. But in that many years of service there are always some circumstance where real good attention has to be deferred. At any rate it does not appear that Pyrodex has caused any damage.

HC/PC means Historically Correct and Period Correct. It is a highly and hotly debated topic. Especially with the flintlock boys. It is also subjective and depends on to whom you are speaking with at the time. Not many agree on what is and isn't.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Don't obsess over the corrosion thing. Just know, in this game, your propellant will corrode. Pyro and BP both corrode but in different chemical ways. Just clean and lube well and it is not an issue, part of the game.
Not doing things absolutely PC/HC is just our way of irritating guys here who are very strict on the issue. :wink: To them we lovingly say: :blah:
Use up your Pyro practicng but do get a supply of real BP for your 'real' shooting. Good luck. Enjoy.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I on the other hand have used Pyrodex for over 20 years in my caplock rifles and Cap & Ball pistols without seeing any signs of pitting, corrosion, etching or anything else in or on the barrels of the guns that fired it.

:shocked2:

That does it! You are no longer blessed to marry my daughter.


I have truly never tried Pyrodex or any substitute - but haven't had all that much trouble getting black powder. That's kind of the point of traditonal muzzleloaders in my mind. But I can see where, in locations black powder is undeliverable and unobtainable, you gotta do what you gotta do. Not sure what you do in those regions if you like traditional flintlocks.

Move I guess.

The beauty of Historically Correct or Period Correct is that it doesn't matter what you think it was - it is historical fact and can't be changed by opinion. We just all adhere to it in varying degrees for price, practically, indifference, or ignorance. So it becomes a bar you set for yourself. What we disagree on is where the bar should be set.

 

[oneyeopn]

I do want to get into the re-enactment stuff, but I dont think I would look very good in a loin cloth. LOL..this is going to be a "take some time" thing to do.
I am going to burn through my Pyrodex and when I get the opportunity pick up a can or two of BP, I am one of those kind that like to practice with what I hunt with so I will work on that. I have seen the flash rusting on my Dads TC Hawken 50cal that gets shot like every three or four years. I should probably clean it for him its been a few years since I cleaned it.
I got both of my rifles used. I was very fortunate that neither one had been used very much and from all appearances after the first cleaning the previous owners decided it was too much work and never shot them again. Or at least that is how I see it with everything that came with them. I have shot them often but not for accuracy and cleaned them religiously. I did learn this week about patch thickness making a rifle unbelievably hard to load. thanks for the help. I was sure hoping the HC/PC didnt have something to do with politically correct!!

 

[hanshi]

I shoot only black powder but also have no trouble getting it. I also have a couple cans of Pyrodex and experimented with it in two revolvers and didn't like it. Never got around to trying it in a long gun as a result.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I do want to get into the re-enactment stuff, but I dont think I would look very good in a loin cloth.

Don't worry about how you will look. It is what it is. Last r'vous I attended, some of the guys wore their loin cloths over their Jockey underwear. Now...THATlooked really hokey. I wore my loin cloth in very hot weather for comfort. But, it was not wool. :shocked2: It was a linen-look cotton.