Keb
50 Cal.
It's been a long time since I have shot over snow but, if I recall correctly, there is black stuff on the ground after shooting. It just seems it'd be pretty hard to tell the difference between fouling soot & unburned powder.
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200grn Powder Charge in a .58cal
- Thread starter roundball
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Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
Keb said:
If a charge is excessive there will be unburned powder blown out of the muzzle. The above method works just fine. Or, you can use common sense and spread a white sheet on the ground in months without snow and observe unburned powder on the sheet.
The formulas are BS they may give a good idea of the point of diminishing returns but all the powder the bore will burn? BS velocity is still increasing well past the formulas maximum.
Shooting to find actual powder grains on a sheet might work if the powder was slow enough and enough used. On snow?
I am convinced that the "shooting over sheets looking for unburned powder" was a joke pulled on Ned Roberts by Brockway and he fell for it and put in "The ML Caplock Rifle".
Given the rifle mentioned here is getting 2200+fps with 200 grains, its gotta be using it.
Its way past the point of diminishing return of velocity gain vs powder charge. But its burning all of it I am sure. 200 grains is not a very long powder column in a 58.
I have shot 65gr of FFF through 32" 32 cal INSIDE A BUILDING over white sheets and never found the slightest trace of powder this is far more in relation to ball weight than a 58 using 200 grains. 65 gr is MORE than the ball weighs in a 32.
Dan
Shooting to find actual powder grains on a sheet might work if the powder was slow enough and enough used. On snow?
I am convinced that the "shooting over sheets looking for unburned powder" was a joke pulled on Ned Roberts by Brockway and he fell for it and put in "The ML Caplock Rifle".
Given the rifle mentioned here is getting 2200+fps with 200 grains, its gotta be using it.
Its way past the point of diminishing return of velocity gain vs powder charge. But its burning all of it I am sure. 200 grains is not a very long powder column in a 58.
I have shot 65gr of FFF through 32" 32 cal INSIDE A BUILDING over white sheets and never found the slightest trace of powder this is far more in relation to ball weight than a 58 using 200 grains. 65 gr is MORE than the ball weighs in a 32.
Dan
This photo appeared on an Internet search.
We know that a faint little pan flash ignites a main powder charge with ease.
Therefore I think it's safe to conclude that the several feet of flame from a typical muzzle blast is certainly going to burn up any possible remaining kernels that might make it out of the muzzle.
Anything that makes it down to a 'white sheet' or 'snow on the ground' would surely be combustion residue / fouling from all the burned kernels of powder.
We know that a faint little pan flash ignites a main powder charge with ease.
Therefore I think it's safe to conclude that the several feet of flame from a typical muzzle blast is certainly going to burn up any possible remaining kernels that might make it out of the muzzle.
Anything that makes it down to a 'white sheet' or 'snow on the ground' would surely be combustion residue / fouling from all the burned kernels of powder.
Ye think? :wink:
That's an old picture.
To me, all it proves is that shooting a flintlock is fun. And more funner at night. :haha:
Once heard some guys at Friendship laid out sheets on the Hawken range at the primitive side and did this test. Then, and now, I thought it was just a made up story.
That's an old picture.
To me, all it proves is that shooting a flintlock is fun. And more funner at night. :haha:
Once heard some guys at Friendship laid out sheets on the Hawken range at the primitive side and did this test. Then, and now, I thought it was just a made up story.
earl jernigan
32 Cal.
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The photo from roundball proves to me that no unburnt powder can land on a sheet, or snow, after a shot---only residue from them. Checking the used patch is a better method to find that the charge is blowing past the patch, thus wasted.
Just my 2 cent worth.
HOSS
Just my 2 cent worth.
HOSS
I sed it oncet. I'll sed it again.
Ye think? :haha: :wink:
ohio ramrod
75 Cal.
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If my memoroy is right(it some times is sometimes isn't ) the formula for powder/ length of barrel is for most efficient powder charge. More powder does yield higher velocities but at much higher breech pressures, and smaller increases in velocities. I read a test several years back where they tested a rifle barrel increasing the powder charge and measuring both the velocity and breech pressures. They stoped the test short of what they intended because the breech pressures started to increase dramatically, with only small increases in velocity. :idunno: :idunno:
Keb
50 Cal.
Back in 56, we use to put plastic tarps in front of the firing line at Friendship. We collected the unburned powder at the end of every day and resold it to pilgrims the next day.
Oh wait. I just made that up because I still don't see any unburned powder making it past that fire storm at the muzzle of a gun just fired.
So that reasoning would lead me to believe I can have unburned prime powder if I over fill my pan... Sorry.
Oh wait. I just made that up because I still don't see any unburned powder making it past that fire storm at the muzzle of a gun just fired.
So that reasoning would lead me to believe I can have unburned prime powder if I over fill my pan... Sorry.
200 grs BP is a waste in a .58. All it will do is punish a shoulder, cause flinching, and split stocks. Is there ANY North American game that needs 200 gr BP?
Like Ohio said, big increases in pressure and small increase in velocity.
Like Ohio said, big increases in pressure and small increase in velocity.
The excess [owder wold probably be considered "unuesed powder" rather than unburnt powder, I tried heavyb loads over a ssheet many years ago and could never get any of the stuff on the sheet to burn, it was not a scioentific tests but the sight of a ML going off in the dark does make one wonder how any powder could get to the ground.
I think roundballs picture does an excellent job of showing that a LOT of powder burns outside the barrel even though the gun in the picture was probably loaded with far less than 200 grains of powder.
While there is no doubt that loading 200 grains of powder will increase the velocity of the projectile there can't be too much of an argument that whole lot of that 200 grain powder load will be burning out there in space making smoke rather than increasing the velocity.
One thing that a 200 grain powder load will do though.
It adds 200 grains to the amount of ejecta that will be coming out of the barrel when the gun fires.
If the gun were loaded with a 500 grain slug plus 200 grains of powder the recoil would be about the same as a super velocity air gun shooting a 700 grain slug.
While there is no doubt that loading 200 grains of powder will increase the velocity of the projectile there can't be too much of an argument that whole lot of that 200 grain powder load will be burning out there in space making smoke rather than increasing the velocity.
One thing that a 200 grain powder load will do though.
It adds 200 grains to the amount of ejecta that will be coming out of the barrel when the gun fires.
If the gun were loaded with a 500 grain slug plus 200 grains of powder the recoil would be about the same as a super velocity air gun shooting a 700 grain slug.
Rat Trapper
62 Cal.
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In 2010 I was at Friendship during their May doings. Walked over to the bench rest area and a guy had a 54 cal bench gun and he was using 200 grains in it. I have seen some pretty heavy loads listed in an article on hunting in Africa in Muzzle Blasts. Roundball, there are plenty on this site who seem to never use more than just enough to get the ball out the barrel. My goal is accuracy with as much vel as I can get without losing the accuracy.
zimmerstutzen
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1. whether any unburned powder is expelled ahead of burning powder bits, wouldn't show up in a fancy night time photo.
2. whether there is excess powder being spewed unburned or even as spectacular muzzle flash, there is still a waste of a portion of the powder.
3. yes velocity generally continues to climb with additional increments of powder, but in calibers 50 and under, there comes a point at which the increase in velocity is ridiculously small considering the risk of the increased pressure. %4 calibers and above do not have the same velocity drop off.
From Lyman's Black powder handbook 1st ed page 124
58 cal PRB 24 inch barrel, ffg Goex
50 grains 903 ft/sec 3,400 LUP 294 ft/lbs at 100 yds
70 grains 1077 ft/sec 5,000 lup 376 ft/lbs at 100yds
90 grains 1225 ft/sec 6,000 lup 432 ft/lbs at 100yds
110 grains 1329 ft/sec 6,410 lup 469 ft/lbs at 100yds
130 grains 1446 ft/sec 7,640 lup 517 ft/lbs at 100 yds
150 grains 1586 ft/sec 8,780 lup 583 ft/lbs at 100 yds
170 grains 1726 ft/sec 9,180 lup 654 ft/lbs at 100 yds
190 grains 1809 ft/sec 9,990 lup 751 ft/lbs at 100 yds
The figures show that velocity increases do not drop off dramatically like smaller calibers as powder charges increase,
from 50 grains, it is necessary to almost quadruple the powder to get double the velocity, and at the same time, the barrel pressure triples.
The other thing is that barrel pressure and velocity increases do not follow the same curves for calibers 50 cal and below. In those calibers the velocity increases drop off far more dramatically and the pressures rise far more dramatically. in the 50 caliber on page 112, the 50 grain charge and the same length barrel, when quadrupled results in only 2/3 more velocity and at 100 yds, less than double in ft/lbs of energy. ie adding an outrageous 150 grains of powder extended the energy range only a small amount over of modest 50 grain charge.
2. whether there is excess powder being spewed unburned or even as spectacular muzzle flash, there is still a waste of a portion of the powder.
3. yes velocity generally continues to climb with additional increments of powder, but in calibers 50 and under, there comes a point at which the increase in velocity is ridiculously small considering the risk of the increased pressure. %4 calibers and above do not have the same velocity drop off.
From Lyman's Black powder handbook 1st ed page 124
58 cal PRB 24 inch barrel, ffg Goex
50 grains 903 ft/sec 3,400 LUP 294 ft/lbs at 100 yds
70 grains 1077 ft/sec 5,000 lup 376 ft/lbs at 100yds
90 grains 1225 ft/sec 6,000 lup 432 ft/lbs at 100yds
110 grains 1329 ft/sec 6,410 lup 469 ft/lbs at 100yds
130 grains 1446 ft/sec 7,640 lup 517 ft/lbs at 100 yds
150 grains 1586 ft/sec 8,780 lup 583 ft/lbs at 100 yds
170 grains 1726 ft/sec 9,180 lup 654 ft/lbs at 100 yds
190 grains 1809 ft/sec 9,990 lup 751 ft/lbs at 100 yds
The figures show that velocity increases do not drop off dramatically like smaller calibers as powder charges increase,
from 50 grains, it is necessary to almost quadruple the powder to get double the velocity, and at the same time, the barrel pressure triples.
The other thing is that barrel pressure and velocity increases do not follow the same curves for calibers 50 cal and below. In those calibers the velocity increases drop off far more dramatically and the pressures rise far more dramatically. in the 50 caliber on page 112, the 50 grain charge and the same length barrel, when quadrupled results in only 2/3 more velocity and at 100 yds, less than double in ft/lbs of energy. ie adding an outrageous 150 grains of powder extended the energy range only a small amount over of modest 50 grain charge.
From the first time I read about (a few years ago) the silly notion of 11.5 grs being a maximum load, the proponents seem to always make changes to their position (to make it more believable, I guess :hmm: ). If it were anything but “just a number” it makes no distinction about what black powder type or size or what caliber. Barrel length!
The unburnt powder on the new fallen snow or over a sheet, falls in the same category. Silly! :thumbsup:
Guest
Using old bed sheets or rolls of paper was a common practice when testing loads by the powder manufacturers back in the 60s & early 70s. The magazines loved to right about this process. John Baird editor of "The Buckskin Report" put it best "tests such as these are a waste of good butt wipes", we loved his off the wall remarks. He finally met his equal when he took on TC about their breech plug system, sad to see his publication go away.
zimmerstutzen
70 Cal.
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it was never the maximum useable charge. Perhaps most efficient for purposes of target loads AND powder conservation.
There some who would stuff 600 grains in a 28 inch barrel and say see it burns without regard to what may come out, (if still alive)
It strikes me as kind of irrational for some to try to duplicate smokeless performance with black powder and round balls. Might as well try whale fishing with a fly rod.
Of course more powder produces more velocity, to a point. When I am going 55 mph down the road, and stomp on the accelerator the car goes faster. But at the same time in nearly all vehicles there is a marked drop in MPG.
The same is true for muzzle loaders and powder charges. There is a maximum powder efficiency and there is other shooting.
There is something about the burning rate of black powder and large bore guns that produces more velocity with "hot" loads (and above), that does not occur with calibers of 50 and under.
I once wondered whether a shooter could get measurably more velocity by igniting the powder in the middle of the powder charge instead of at the breech end, the way most muzzleloaders work. instead of the powder burning from the back of the charge toward the front, and pushing the "not yet burned" powder and ball ahead of it. ignite the powder in the middle so the charge is burning in both directions at the same time. Would it be possible to get 100 grain performance from 75 grain charges. Sort of the reason why some high gas mileage cars have two spark plugs per cyclinder.
There some who would stuff 600 grains in a 28 inch barrel and say see it burns without regard to what may come out, (if still alive)
It strikes me as kind of irrational for some to try to duplicate smokeless performance with black powder and round balls. Might as well try whale fishing with a fly rod.
Of course more powder produces more velocity, to a point. When I am going 55 mph down the road, and stomp on the accelerator the car goes faster. But at the same time in nearly all vehicles there is a marked drop in MPG.
The same is true for muzzle loaders and powder charges. There is a maximum powder efficiency and there is other shooting.
There is something about the burning rate of black powder and large bore guns that produces more velocity with "hot" loads (and above), that does not occur with calibers of 50 and under.
I once wondered whether a shooter could get measurably more velocity by igniting the powder in the middle of the powder charge instead of at the breech end, the way most muzzleloaders work. instead of the powder burning from the back of the charge toward the front, and pushing the "not yet burned" powder and ball ahead of it. ignite the powder in the middle so the charge is burning in both directions at the same time. Would it be possible to get 100 grain performance from 75 grain charges. Sort of the reason why some high gas mileage cars have two spark plugs per cyclinder.
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:rotf: well you can whale fish with a fly rod but when it breaks you will get splinters in the face.
