.45 GRRW Leman powder test including Pyrodex & Triple7

[Herb]

I built a .45 Leman Trade Rifle at the Green River Rifle Works in 1978. This was in a class in Antique Custom Riflesmithing taught by Greg Roberts, production manager. I may give this rifle to my greatgrandson Trenton, 14, in Hawaii. He wants to hunt wild pigs and really wants a .45 flint Lancaster I built. I do not know if real blackpowder is available in Hawaii, and some is necessary to shoot a flintlock with Pyrodex or Triple 7 powders, available there. I asked his dad to see if they can buy real black powder there. If not, I can give him this percussion rifle if he wants it, which can use Pyrodex or Triple 7. So I tested these powders in comparison to black powders to advise him how to use them. I will post these results separately.

I used .440 Hornady balls and various patches, lube always Murphy Oil Soap and alcohol. Primers were CCI 11 (magnums not needed) and a Hot Shot nipple, necessary for the Pyrodex and Triple 7 powders. I shot at 50 yards from bench through my Oehler 35P chronograph, plotting each shot and finding the patch if I could.

Pyrodex and Triple 7 and Swiss need strong patches and I tested several. There was JoAnn .007 (crushed reading) linen (too loose a weave, not good), JoAnn .018/.012 linen (too thick for this ball and bore, but good), OxYoke .015 (which mikes .012 but compresses to .0065) which worked very well. I tried to standardize on the OxYoke because it is widely available. Also some of my other linens which worked best, but it was too much trouble to describe them. Some powders needed overpowder wads (OPW) which I cut from a shrunken wool sweater. I used weight-corrected measures for 35 grains of Goex 3F and Olde Eynsford 3F and the same 70 grain measure (made from a fired 7mm Rem Mag case) for Goex 3F, 2F, OE 3F, OE 2F, OE 1 1/2F, Pyrodex P and RS. I also used it for Triple 7 3F and 2F but later made a 50 grain (Goex 2F) measure for them. More on that later. I did not have Swiss 3F, but Swiss 2F and 1 1/2F needed their own measures. The 70 grain Goex 2F measure held 79.3 grains of Swiss 1 1/2F!

On Target 1, I started with 35 grains of Goex 3F and a JoAnn linen that miked .012 but compressed to .007. The weave was too thin and it is not a good patch. One blew, velocity 1395 fps. (You can hold down CONTROL and hit the + sign to enlarge pictures).

On Target 2 I used this patch with 35 grains of Olde Eynsford 3F and all patches blew. 1490 fps. Then I went to an .009 super muslin and four averaged 1379 but all patches blew. I have not yet shot a good group with Olde E. 3f in any caliber and do not like it. On the same target I went to 70 grains of Goex 2F, trying 3 patches. I used 35 and 70 grains because those are what this rifle liked when I built it 36 years ago.



I am going to break this into separate posts because it takes so long for the photos to come up.

 

[Herb]

Target 3 was 70 grains of Goex 2F and the .015 OxYoke, which really mikes .012 on the ratchet and crushes to .0065. I was surprised at how well this patch worked. OxYoke is now Eastern Maine Shooting Supplies. Their .020 patch will probably work better, but I couldn't find mine. It probably crushes to around .010, I can't remember. Velocity 1737 fps, and this was my bench mark for comparison of other powders. Target 7 was ditto but 70 grains of Goex 3F. One patch holed, 1820 fps.



Target 6 was ditto but 70 grains of Olde E. 3F. Two of three patches blew, 1965 fps velocity on good patch. Target 11 was 70 grains of OE 3F with JoAnn .012 (crush) linen. Very hard to load, too thick. First shot missed the target! Then I went to a linen that mikes .014 but crushes to .007, a very good patch. After the second shot with this, used an OPW. Velocity 1873.



Target 4 is 70 grains of OE 2F and an OxYoke patch. 1829 fps, a good powder. Target 12 is 70 grains of OE 1 1/2F and my .014/.007 linen. Cleaning patch on the seater jag. 1824 fps (same velocity) and good accuracy. My favorite powders.

 

[Herb]

Target 13 was 70 grains (weight-corrected new measure) of Swiss 1 1/2F and the .007 linen, no OPW, cleaning patch on seating jag. All good patches. 1736 fps. Target 14 was ditto except I used an OPW. Velocity was 1768, 32 fps faster, accuracy the same.



Target 15 was 70 grains of OE 3F with a Teflon patch, 018/.011. Tight to load. Cleaning patch on seater jag, no fouling problem. Again, powder no good in this rifle at this charge. Target 16 was 70 grains of "Swiss 2F" that I got from someone, repackaged in a Goex can. I think it might be mixed. First three shots with JoAnn .018/.012 linen, had to hammer the short starter. Blew patches, one at 1927 fps. This could be a good patch but is too thick for this ball and bore. Shots 4, 5 and 6 were from a new can of Swiss 2F, 70 grains of a weight-corrected measure, same JoAnn thick patch. 1949 fps. Good accuracy. Cost me $30 (?) per pound.



In summary, OxYoke (now Eastern Maine) .015 patches worked very well, though some powders require an OPW with any patch I have tried. 70 grains of Goex 3F was 83 fps faster than Goes 2F. Olde Eynsford 2F was 92 fps faster than Goex 2F, but about the same as Goex 3F, OE 1 1/2F and Pyrodex RS. I'll break off here and come back with Pyrodex and Triple 7, then move to the Flintlock forum.

 

[Herb]

Now to Pyrodex and Triple 7. Target 5 is with the 70 grain Goex 2F measure used for Pyrodex RS. All good patches, velocity 100 fps higher than Goex 2F at 1834 fps. A good group. I like RS.

Target 8, 70 grains same measure with Pyrodex P. First shot with an .013 GI fatigue shirt patch which tore. Then .018/.009 super muslin, patches also blew. Shots 6-12 with .015 OxYoke, first two blew, then used an OPW for 8-12. Velocity 1965. Needs a better patch. With this powder, some shots give high velocity, like #9 2123 fps, but shoot right in the group. Or low velocity. The loads are consistent with about 0.3 grain variation in weight in 10 shots, (I do not tap or settle the powder) so I don't know why the velocity spread occurs. It does no harm.



Target 9 is with the 70 grain Goex 2F measure but Triple 7 3F and a wool OPW. All good patches, 2121 fps, a good group. Target 10 is ditto but Triple 7 2F at 2067 fps, all good patches, not as accurate.



I used 70 grains for a common measure with all powders, including Pyrodex P and RS. Hodgon says to reduce the volumetric charge of Triple 7 2F and 3F by 15 percent to equal black powder velocity. So I used a measure that held 50 grains of Goex 3F and 2F (based on previous testing) to measure Triple 7 2F. That velocity was 1757 fps, 20 fps faster than 70 grains of Goex 2F, but the charge weighed only 38.8 grains.

Hodgdon has a Basic Muzzleloading Manual where they list a top charge of 60 grains of Pyrodex RS with a .45 patched roundball at 1926 fps. They do not list any roundball load with Pyrodex P. But they also show 100 grain charges of Pyrodex P and RS with 150, 180, 225 and 240 grain bullets at up to 2136 fps. My .440 roundballs weigh about 128 grains.

With Triple 7 their top load listed for a .45 roundball is 60 grains of 2F at 1926 fps (sound familiar?). This is a black powder bulk volume measurement, not weight. But they list equal top loads of T7 2F and 3F of 100 grains with bullets/sabots of 150 to 240 grains, up to 2235 fps. The T7 3F bottle lable shows a .45 load of a 150 grain Knight RedHot (whatever that is) with 100 grain volume at 2295 fps. Their charges are exactly the same for Pyrodex P, RS, Triple 7 3F and 2F, each maxing at 100 grains. The Lyman Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual, Volume 2, has top charges in a .45 with roundball of 120 grains of Pyrodex P and RS and Goex 3F and 2F.

On target 17 I shot two shots of T7 2f with the 70 grain Goex 2F measure, got one reading of 2029 fps. Then I used a measure that holds 50 grains of Goex 2F to measure the Triple 7 2F (38.8 grains actual weight). That gave 1757 fps, exceeding the 1737 fps velocity of 70 grains of Goex 2F.



For those who complain about the high cost of Triple 7 granular powder, here is what it really costs to equal the velocity of 70 grains weight/volume of Goex 2F. Triple 7 costs $27 per pound here. 27 divided buy 7000 grains per pound equals .003857 cents per grain. Multiply that by 38.8 grain weight of charge to get .1496 cents per shot, or $14.96 per 100 shots. Fill in your own black powder cost per pound, including the hazmat fee if you had to pay it. I got Goex at Fort Bridger for about $16 per pound. Divide $16 by 7000 grains to get .0022857 cents per grain. Multiply that by 70 to get .16 cents per shot or $16 per hundred. About a dollar more expensive per 100 shots than an equal velocity charge of Triple 7.

So that is the caplock rifle. Again, the purpose of the testing was to demonstrate the use of Pyrodex and Triple 7 powders so that Trenton can use this rifle in Hawaii, if he wants it. For those who simply have to complain about these powders, I thought they smelled like burning chicken feathers, with my bad cold.

 

[Herb]

You might wonder how an 81 year-old geezer with trifocals and beginning cataracts can shoot two or three holes touching so often at 50 yards (or even 100 yards). The sights and target aiming bar really help. My front sight is .106 thick steel (I made it) and covers 5.5" at 50 yards, the aiming bar (target) is 6.5". Could be larger for me now, and more room between targets. I sawed the rear sight out of 1" angle iron and drilled a .220 hole. That sees 28" at 50 yards and worked fine but I wanted a smaller hole so tapped a wooden dowel in and drilled that to .103, a good size for these targets, but about .180 would be good for everything. The big .220 hole would be fine for hunting. I hold the top of the front sight half way up the hole. the top 1/4 of the hole could be cut off and the sight works just as well. A cleaning patch on the seating jag kept the bore clean, if I used it, though I sometimes cleaned the bore between powder changes to clean the bullet seat area.





For those with eyesight difficulties, this is a really good sight. Doc White (GRRW) called it a closed buckhorn. I have seen them on original rifles, even Hawkens, which is where I got my idea. It is not a peep sight and works just as well with the top 1/4 of the hole cut off. Still hold the front sight halfway up the hole (the widest diameter) to aim. Hold up to the top of the (cut off) hole for a long range zero.

Now I will move to the Flintlock Forum to continue with this test in a flint rifle.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Herb! that's a lot of data to digest, and I'm not sure about the point your trying to make . Your data seems to be all over the board!
But I do like your peep sight. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[Herb]

I wanted to compare these powders in the Leman, because it is what I like to do and may give the rifle away.

 

[coloradoclyde]

understood! but I'm not sure that your comparison is fair or equal because you use the same charge with different powders.

 

[Shifty]

One of my rifles has a home made peep ,mine is mounted on the rear of the tang has a .103 hole works good adjustable for both windage & elevation.Think i will try one kinda like yours on one of the others.