200grn Powder Charge in a .58cal

[GBG]

While blood trailing a big boar at dusk, through neck deep brush and briars this past Feburary, the last thing on my mind was recoil, unburned powder or efficiency. JMO.

 

[Trench]

While blood trailing a big boar at dusk, through neck deep brush and briars this past Feburary, the last thing on my mind was recoil, unburned powder or efficiency. JMO.

Yup. :thumbsup: And there are also guys who like the "academics" of a hobby. That's okay, too. I walk that fence and fall to one side or the other at times. :grin:

 

[plastikosmd]

My goal in working up a load is adequate accuracy with enough velocity to shoot reasonably flat out to 100 yards. Anything beyond 100 I call too far or if I'm not sure how far it is that is also too far. For shots inside 100 I don't want to have to wonder how high or low to hold. I want to be able to sight in so that my shot never rises more than 3" above line of sight nor drops more than 3" low at 100 yards. That requirement dictates a minimum velocity of about 1600 fps. From a long barreled .50 caliber I can get there with as little as 60 grains of 3f but if I get better accuracy with 120 grains that is what I will use. Whether or not powder is blown out the muzzle really doesn't concern me, nor do I care if I have exceeded some unknown person's theoritical maximum effeciency. :haha:

Joe and I should shoot together. I couldn't have said it better. I push until I see no improvement. 150g shot tighter than 140, so next week up to 160.
(62 caliber load-bench gun, not meant to be a statement for a manageable carry gun!)

 

[Huntin_Dawg1215]

I did that. I used a sheet on the ground and it showed unburnt powder. At the time i was shooting 100 grains in my New England and roundball. Was not getting good accuracy. Read some where that the old timer did it over snow, no snow here in July. Got a sheet and started at 100grns. worked my way down till there was no unburnt powder as I went down in podwer the accuracy came up.Settled at 70grns. And still shooting that same amount. That was about roughly 1995.

It worked for me and I had fun doing it.

 

[roundball]

I used a sheet on the ground and it showed unburnt powder.

worked my way down till there was no unburnt powder

Just like when using a chronograph, its important to record detailed shot-to-shot information to end up with a set of data from any testing that is logical and makes sense of course.

What mechanism and processes did you use to recover / screen / count the unburned kernels of powder to make your shot-to-shot comparisons?

 

[aeatwood]

"Recoil is irrelevant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" - The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

Truer words were never spoken. I like BIG bore ML's. :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

I used a sheet on the ground and it showed unburnt powder.

worked my way down till there was no unburnt powder

Just like when using a chronograph, its important to record detailed shot-to-shot information to end up with a set of data from any testing that is logical and makes sense of course.

What mechanism and processes did you use to recover / screen / count the unburned kernels of powder to make your shot-to-shot comparisons?

Have we heard back on this?

Can ANYONE who does these tests to discover and quantify "unburned kernels of powder" on a shot to shot basis that land on a white sheet...please post the detailed steps of the processes used to produce the data that supports the conclusions?

 

[BrownBear]

Closest I have come is shooting on snow. From what I can tell, the "unburned kernels" are actually cinders. They crumble easily when you try to pick them up- nothing like unburned powder at all. I get them every shot when using 1f powder, no matter the size of the charge. You also see a lot more of the little curlicue "tracers" emanating from the smoke cloud with 1f. I think they're related. The stuff appears almost to be burning rather than exploded as it comes out the bore. Speculation and no proof.

Nothing systematic about my study of the gritty bits, but enuff looking and poking to convince me the issue is a paper tiger for the round file and online experts.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

So now it isn't good enough that the residue collected from the sheet actually ignited and burned, they have to separate it for you?

I have seen and burned the residue swept up on the concrete floor of an indoor range where I worked. A whole lot of unburned powder, but also mostly from 22 RF shooting and I could see the grains of smokeless in the sweepings.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

When shooting centerfires I often see unburned powder granules left in the bore, but so what? Increasing the charge still increases the velocity. Past the point of diminishing returns? If we were really that cost conscious we probably shouldn't be shooting at all. We spend thousands of dollars on fine muzzleloading guns to shoot a deer we could have killed just as dead with a beat up fifty dollar shotgun and one factory loaded slug, or to kill a turkey which isn't worth the cost of the tag. So we argue about whether or not I'm burning more powder than I need to? Of course I am, I don't NEED to burn any.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Which demonstrates why many of the ideas behind the ballistics of muzzle loading are lost on many here.

The Neanderthal non-theory of muzzle loading. "Dump much powder gun goes big boom. "

The Popeye syndrome is alive and well.

Lets see, smokeless burns faster and yet unburned powder is left over and spills onto the floor. Yet many here are firmly convinced (without ever actually trying it) that larger volumes of slower burning black powder couldn't possibly ever do the same under any circumstances. The lack of logic behind such close minded views truly is amazing.

 

[Darkgael]

That 11.5 grains of FFg per cubic inch of barrel that was mentioned earlier caught my eye.
Just for reference (and because no one else has), in a 30 inch .58 Cal barrel the powder charge would be 91 grains.
(Using V=Ï€(r^2)L, where L is barrel length)
Pete

 

[GBG]

The Neanderthal non-theory of muzzle loading. "Dump much powder gun goes big boom. "

I prefer a big boom to "Use squib deer load, make boar mad".

BTW, can anyone tell me where to find a .58 or larger barrel approved for 200 grains of BP?

 

[Rifleman1776]

can anyone tell me where to find a .58 or larger barrel approved for 200 grains of BP?

Sounds like a custom job. Benchrest shooters use some hellacious big boomers. Check Muzzle Blasts ads for custom barrel makers. Be sure to work out with weights and have a fat check book for the project. Methinks a 1 1/8" barrel made from proper steel would do the job. But to be long enough to use all that powder, you will have to be plenty strong to hold it up. Let us know what you do.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

"approved" by whom?

I have three rifle barrel blanks 58 cal, 62 and 69 that are 1.25 inch round x 38 inches long. (might be decent chunkers)

I still don't think that I would fire that kind of load out of them.

As for squib loads, I don't need or want to use heavy loads for squirrel and rabbit. Most anybody with a rifle can hit a deer size target within 100 yards. Less challenging.

 

[GBG]

"approved" by whom?

The manufacturer, builder, proof house or a liscensed P.E.

Rifleman, A thick breech highly tapered barrel could help keep the weight manageable. A .69-.78 smooth bore would be fine because I hunt at very close range.

 

[roundball]

A .69-.78 smooth bore would be fine because I hunt at very close range.

As I made clear in my opening post, I like stout powder charges so I'm only asking this out of curiosity.

Seeing these comments together: .69-.78 smoothbore and very close range
along with the discussion oriented towards really large powder charges like 200grns suggests a really potent combination...makes me wonder if you're going after the big bears that bite back...African game, etc?

 

[Rifleman1776]

I hunt at very close range.

With 200 grain charges? :shocked2:

 

[GBG]

No, just Appalachian wild hogs. Why do I want more power?
My partner hit one boar with a Dixie Tri-Ball through the ribs broadside at 30 yards. A second took the same three .600" heat treated WW RBs through the neck at 12 yards. Both ran straight up a steep mountain side and after more than 1/4 mile were lost in the thickets after dark...still running.
I need a ML that can break them down with one shot.

 

[GBG]

[/quote]With 200 grain charges? :shocked2:[/quote]
I don't have a ML that will take heavy charges, but after twice watching in disbelief as a boar took over 900 grains of lead and nearly 3000 fpe only to run out of sight, I'm going to get one.