12 gauge load confusion.

[Britsmoothy]

The shotgun in question is a fairly new Pedersoli, I should have mentioned that in the original post. The barrels are marked 12gauge. If I was to try and get a bore measurement, how far down the barrel would I have to go to get past the choked area of the muzzle?

The person I bought the gun from said he used standard 12g cards, but he only shot it about 6 times.



I have been thinking about trying to make "cartridges" like you describe. Would you be willing to share more information about it?

On the underside of the barrels can you see a number 18? Possibly 18.3 or . something.
All guns made under CIP rules have to have the bore diameter stamped on the barrel.

 

[Britsmoothy]

If for example it has a value of 18.4, that is the diameter in millimeters.
18.4mm equals .724"

 

[drstrangelove]

The shotgun in question is a fairly new Pedersoli, I should have mentioned that in the original post. The barrels are marked 12gauge. If I was to try and get a bore measurement, how far down the barrel would I have to go to get past the choked area of the muzzle?

The person I bought the gun from said he used standard 12g cards, but he only shot it about 6 times.



I have been thinking about trying to make "cartridges" like you describe. Would you be willing to share more information about it?

I use a dowel that’s about 0.69” and nitrated coffee filters. Roll half a filter around the dowel, glue stick edges so there is about 1cm overlap and twist the paper, tie it off, or fold and glue stick... doesn’t matter... and slide closed paper tube off the dowel. Pour in 70gr FFg. Next, roll compress a corn based packing popcorn peanut and slide it in on top of powder. These work perfectly as a wad. They are combustibe. When the peanut has expanded to max within the tube, pour in 1 1/4 oz lead or bismuth shot. Do not use steel. Paper won’t protect your barrel. Twist or Fold glue or tie the top. When loading, because I don’t want an ignition delay, I tear the bottom of the powder end and pour the powder down the barrel. Then drop the whole cartridge down the barrel. Then an overshot card to keep it firmly in place.

For lube, options include bore butter the shot cartridge sides, or putting in a lubed 1/4” felt between the powder and residual cartridge.
My patterns are extremely dense at 25 yards, about a foot across, with the mod choke, and about 2 ft across with the IC choke. Recovered unburnt nitrated paper (expect this if using a felt OP wad) indicated proper rupture of the paper cartridge without any slugging. Yet another option is to use two lubed felt wads for OS, creating a skychief drafting effect, which I plan to test this weekend with the IC barrel to see if I can tighten things up a bit.

I still haven’t got my timing down with this gun (Pedersoli browned barrel lightweight 12ga percussion) and lower velocities, and am doing poorly compared to my O/U 20ga Cynergy on clays.

 

[k.jacobfrost]

I use a dowel that’s about 0.69” and nitrated coffee filters. Roll half a filter around the dowel, glue stick edges so there is about 1cm overlap and twist the paper, tie it off, or fold and glue stick... doesn’t matter... and slide closed paper tube off the dowel. Pour in 70gr FFg. Next, roll compress a corn based packing popcorn peanut and slide it in on top of powder. These work perfectly as a wad. They are combustibe. When the peanut has expanded to max within the tube, pour in 1 1/4 oz lead or bismuth shot. Do not use steel. Paper won’t protect your barrel. Twist or Fold glue or tie the top. When loading, because I don’t want an ignition delay, I tear the bottom of the powder end and pour the powder down the barrel. Then drop the whole cartridge down the barrel. Then an overshot card to keep it firmly in place.

For lube, options include bore butter the shot cartridge sides, or putting in a lubed 1/4” felt between the powder and residual cartridge.
My patterns are extremely dense at 25 yards, about a foot across, with the mod choke, and about 2 ft across with the IC choke. Recovered unburnt nitrated paper (expect this if using a felt OP wad) indicated proper rupture of the paper cartridge without any slugging. Yet another option is to use two lubed felt wads for OS, creating a skychief drafting effect, which I plan to test this weekend with the IC barrel to see if I can tighten things up a bit.

I still haven’t got my timing down with this gun (Pedersoli browned barrel lightweight 12ga percussion) and lower velocities, and am doing poorly compared to my O/U 20ga Cynergy on clays.

Thanks for the info. It will be helpful when I start experimenting with making my own. That is after I figure out a good load for the gun.

 

[k.jacobfrost]

On the underside of the barrels can you see a number 18? Possibly 18.3 or . something.
All guns made under CIP rules have to have the bore diameter stamped on the barrel.

Unfortunately, I don't see anything like what you describe on the underside of the barrels. Here are a few pictures of the markings that are there.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Unfortunately, I don't see anything like what you describe on the underside of the barrels. Here are a few pictures of the markings that are there.

View attachment 70408View attachment 70409View attachment 70408View attachment 70409

I am confused now myself.
To quote a quick web search on the subject.....
"A gun is said to “go out of proof” if the internal dimensions of its barrel exceed certain defined original dimensions when it was proof tested. This can be caused by corrosion, wear, excessive cleaning with abrasive material, or the deliberate removal of metal, for example, when a gun is rebored."

Maybe due to America not being under CIP rules they don't stamp the exported barrels.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Here is a photo off my Pedersoli.

 

[toot]

as too powder & shot I allays use the square load.

 

[JCKelly]

Thanks for the clarification of wad materials and the warning about the wooden rammer.

ALSO thank you for the image. I hope folks will note that the barrel is split, and didn't shatter into multiple pieces a-la a "pipe bomb" or hand grenade. I write this as it's been my observation from seeing black powder barrels of various steels "blown", that those that bulged or ruptured from a problem with Black Powder, as mentioned bulged, or split..., while those that fragmented into multiple pieces did so when smokeless powder was loaded due to operator error.

LD

I would say that 12L14 barrels tend to fragment.

 

[JCKelly]

I am confused now myself.
To quote a quick web search on the subject.....
"A gun is said to “go out of proof” if the internal dimensions of its barrel exceed certain defined original dimensions when it was proof tested. This can be caused by corrosion, wear, excessive cleaning with abrasive material, or the deliberate removal of metal, for example, when a gun is rebored."

Maybe due to America not being under CIP rules they don't stamp the exported barrels.

Pardon my American ignorance, but what are "CIP" rules??? We have rather few rules here regarding manufacturing a gun fit for normal use. This is why I recommend Americans buy Spanish or Italian muzzle loading guns. Most of our muzzle loading barrels are me from the worst possible steel on the market.
Ah, but it machines well.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Pardon my American ignorance, but what are "CIP" rules??? We have rather few rules here regarding manufacturing a gun fit for normal use. This is why I recommend Americans buy Spanish or Italian muzzle loading guns. Most of our muzzle loading barrels are me from the worst possible steel on the market.
Ah, but it machines well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Com...nte_pour_l'épreuve_des_armes_à_feu_portatives

 

[Old Hawkeye]

CIP is the European version of what SAAMI is in the USA, but it carries the weight of law, while SAAMI is an industry agreed upon standard & has no legal mandate. CIP also oversees the proof firing of guns before they can be marketed by the maker. Like SAAMI they set the specs for chamber dimensions & pressures so all guns and ammo meet the same standard.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

This thread raises two pretty significant issues regarding overshot cards getting sideways against the side of the bore.
1. V. M. Star, board guru, recommends loading using overshot cards as over powder wads, so there is an issue of conflicting advice.
2. Most everyone uses an over shot card over the shot;and there is no reason that such a card can't get sideways up against the bore. I've had that happen, though certainly not often, and I have been aware of it when it has. (Naturally, it would happen when under pressure to be ready to shoot.)

So, it's important to be aware of how the overshot card is loading, or isn't loading, all the time.

 

[k.jacobfrost]

Thanks for the into and advice. I have shot, cards, some wads (I'm curious to see how they behave and the ones I found in stock are thick enough I can cut them down as I see fit), and shot, on order. Once it all comes in, I will take it the range and see what works.

 

[coloradoclyde]

The shotgun in question is a fairly new Pedersoli

Seems I recall pedersoli making a turkey model.

 

[nhmoose]

Track of the Wolfs Wad dimensions.

Gauge​	Bore Diameter​	Wad Diameter​	Gauge​	Bore Diameter​	Wad Diameter​
4ga.	1.070"	1.050"	19ga.	.626"	.636"
5ga.	.976"	.995"	20ga.	.615"	.625"
6ga.	.919"	.935"	24ga.	.579"	.589"
7ga.	.873"	.888"	28ga.	.550"	.560"
8ga.	.835"	.850"	410	.410"	.415"
9ga.	.815"	.803"	30cal.	Rifle	.310"
10ga.	.775"	.788"	32cal.	Rifle	.320"
11ga.	.751"	.762"	38cal.	Pistol(.357")	.360"
12ga.	.729"	.740"	38cal.	Rifle	.360"
13ga.	.710"	.720"	40cal.	Rifle	.410"
14ga.	.693"	.703"	44cal.	Pistol(.429")	.430"
15ga.	.667"	.687"	44cal.	Rifle	.450"
16ga.	.662"	.672"	45cal.	Pistol(.452"-.454")	.455"
17ga.	.649"	.659"	45cal.	Rifle	.460"
18ga.	.637"	.647"	50 cal.	Rifle	.510"

 

[coloradoclyde]

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Pardon my American ignorance, but what are "CIP" rules??? We have rather few rules here regarding manufacturing a gun fit for normal use. This is why I recommend Americans buy Spanish or Italian muzzle loading guns. Most of our muzzle loading barrels are me from the worst possible steel on the market.
Ah, but it machines well.

Well again, we see the latent "trust" in proofing. I seriously doubt that the American barrel steel is the "worst possible steel" on the market. Especially since it was Spanish, proofed barrels that caused a recall of a CVA rifle. I haven't heard of any recalls of Green Mountain, Colerain, or Getz barrels, nor for Miroku barrels for that matter......

CIP is Commission Internationale Permanente pour L'épreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives which is the "Permanent International Commission for the Proof of Small Arms", and it often abbreviated as CIP or C.I.P. It is the legal agreement between specific countries that sets the pressure limit for specific fixed, small arms cartridges. Nations that have agreed to abide by the CIP then may establish poofing houses to test barrels made for those specific fixed small arms cartridges. The pressures are then standardized for the specific fixed small arms cartridges.

I stress "fixed small arms cartridges" because there is confusion because of this, and many many people think that since barrels are proofed for these modern cartridges, and the proofing houses also proof muzzle loading barrels, the standards must also be equally as high and equally standardized for those muzzle loading barrels. Which is not the case. Every C.I.P. proofing house sets its own independent standard for testing of muzzle loading barrels, and so it's quite possible that a barrel which would pass proofing at the Italian or Spanish houses would fail at the British, German, or Belgian houses.

LD

 

[Britsmoothy]

Well again, we see the latent "trust" in proofing. I seriously doubt that the American barrel steel is the "worst possible steel" on the market. Especially since it was Spanish, proofed barrels that caused a recall of a CVA rifle. I haven't heard of any recalls of Green Mountain, Colerain, or Getz barrels, nor for Miroku barrels for that matter......

CIP is Commission Internationale Permanente pour L'épreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives which is the "Permanent International Commission for the Proof of Small Arms", and it often abbreviated as CIP or C.I.P. It is the legal agreement between specific countries that sets the pressure limit for specific fixed, small arms cartridges. Nations that have agreed to abide by the CIP then may establish poofing houses to test barrels made for those specific fixed small arms cartridges. The pressures are then standardized for the specific fixed small arms cartridges.

I stress "fixed small arms cartridges" because there is confusion because of this, and many many people think that since barrels are proofed for these modern cartridges, and the proofing houses also proof muzzle loading barrels, the standards must also be equally as high and equally standardized for those muzzle loading barrels. Which is not the case. Every C.I.P. proofing house sets its own independent standard for testing of muzzle loading barrels, and so it's quite possible that a barrel which would pass proofing at the Italian or Spanish houses would fail at the British, German, or Belgian houses.

LD

I'm not sure but think they load them heavy after taking measurements then check the measurements again after.

 

[Henry Miles]

Concerning choked barrels for ML shotguns, the concept is nothing new. My 200yr old Mortimer 10ga has choked barrels. I've met others who think ML barrels weren't choked but they are and were, regularly.