12L14 Steel for barrels???

I just read some disturbing info on a rifle builders website. He claims that this info comes from a knowledgeable metallurgist. He states that 12L14 steel is inappropriate for use as a muzzleloading barrel due to the fact that it can "Shrapnelize" under normal pressures associated with black powder loads and that the risk becomes much greater when the steel reaches a temperature of 10 degrees F. or when the barrel becomes obstructed or overloaded.
I'm currently building a rifle and I just learned that the barrel is constructed of 12L14 steel.
Can anyone here confirm or dispel this claim as I am rather nervous about this matter.

Link to the article: http://www.caywoodguns.com/gun barrel steel.htm

Razor62 said:

due to the fact that it can "Shrapnelize" under normal pressures associated with black powder loads and that the risk becomes much greater when the steel reaches a temperature of 10 degrees F. or when the barrel becomes obstructed or overloaded.

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ANY barrel can do that if it is obstructed or overloaded.

Keith Lisle

I've seen no evidence of that should cause concerns with cold temperatures and 12L14. As far as it's sutability for use in muzzleloaders, this has been discussed at length on this site and others. The bone of contention is that 12L14 is not approved by the industry as an ordnance grade steel.

I have seen no "evidence" of one turning to shrapnel...ruptured, bulged, broken, sure. There have been accounts of ordance steel barrels fragmenting.

A former producer of muzzleloader barrels G. R. Douglas apparently had a couple barrel failures in thin .45 caliber barrels. The failure was attributed to their production methods combined with the properties of the steel. They were rifling blanks that where extruded to the octagon shape prior to drilling. Some believe it was the extruding process that "weakened" the steel. There are still thousands of barrels produced by this company still in service though.

No manufacturer that I know of today who uses 12L14 makes their barrels in this manner. The billets are drilled and then machined to final profile so no extruding is involved.

There are many thousands of 12L14 muzzleloader barrels in use and many of those have fired many thousands of loads with no ill effects.

If a 12L14 barrel is breeched properly and proper loading procedures and safety measures followed I don't feel any more endangered by firing them than I do shooting CF guns.

You are more likely to get struck by lightning or get in a car accident today but likely you will go outside and get in your car and turn the key.

Do some searches and do some reading and make up your own mind. Enjoy, J.D.

Here we go again! :idunno: I don't know the Caywoods, but they also claim touch hole liners are a big no no, even though it has been a common practice for hundreds of years.
Robby

Kevin,

If you decide to follow Danny Caywood's advice and not use the barrel I will help you out. I am so concerned for your safety that I am even willing to pay the postage to have it sent to me so as to avoid you having to use it. I will make sure it is properly "disposed of" and ensure you will never have to shoot it. :wink:

Enjoy, J.D.

To condem 12L14 is to condem the vast majority of barrels that are and have been in service for many, many years. If it was so unsafe the dead bodies would be stacked up to the heavens.

Cut it out Matt. Let the guy make up his own mind. I'm trying to get Dan Pharris over here to make a post on the subject.

If that doesn't convince him to send me the barrel nothing will. :haha: :haha: :haha:

Enjoy, J.D.

I respect Caywood's work but do not accept his views on barrels as facts. It makes no sense that a threaded breech is safe but a threaded touchhole is not, and it defies hundreds of years of practical knowledge. That he holds to unsupportable views in one area makes all his statements that are at odds with common knowledge suspect to me.

Well, that settles it. That's kinda' what I figured. I knew that if I through it out here I'd learn the truth. Thank you gentleman and sorry J.D.
but I would feel just terrible if I handed that grenade, uh - barrel off to you and it blew itself to smithereens while you shooting it. :rotf:

I'd like to know what type of steel all the big names in modern muzzleloaders use for their barrels. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that at least a few of them use 12L14. Laffindog mentions that the vast majority of barrels in service are of this type of steel. If that's the case it would seem slanderous for Caywood to publish claims that they're unsafe. If one like myself who has very little knowledge of the different types of steel and their uses reads his article they'd be a little concerned as I was.
Based upon what I'm hearing here the only thing I'm suspect about now with regard to this topic is Mr. Caywood.

Robby said:

Here we go again! :idunno: I don't know the Caywoods, but they also claim touch hole liners are a big no no, even though it has been a common practice for hundreds of years.
Robby

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I have known the Caywoods for decades. And, yes, they do condem liners. Danny and his dad, Charlie, have quite a routine talking about this subject. Fun to watch and convincing for those new to the ml game. I don't agree with them. They had a similar routine for twists, claiming that 1:48" was all that was ever needed for rifles regardless of caliber. Again pretty convincing for newcomers to the ml game.
Incidentially, a couple years ago they switched to barrels with a 1:56" twist.

If you look at the thread "Tubing for Barrels" on page 2 there is a list of Companys that use 12L14 if it was'nt safe I don't think these folks would us it.

Send that barrel to me and go buy another one. There are two ways to brag about your product. The first method if to say mine is better than every other one. The other method is to say that the others are inferior or not as good as mine.
Caywood used the second method. Condemning the others.
A fool can blow up any gun barrel.

jerry huddleston said:

Send that barrel to me and go buy another one. There are two ways to brag about your product. The first method if to say mine is better than every other one. The other method is to say that the others are inferior or not as good as mine.
Caywood used the second method. Condemning the others.
A fool can blow up any gun barrel.

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How does a new person know whom to trust and whom not to trust, especially with barrels and gun makers?

Your workmanship/knowledge is not being questioned, I am wondering about others level of knowledge and expertice.

Who is qualified to comment???

r

You mean that 1/2 dozen barrels in the basement are all no good!!!!???? :shocked2:

WHATEVER :idunno:

Don't feel bad.... :idunno: I have been buying them & saving them up for 15 years & now I find they are all no good. manure.....

Keith Lisle

The largest percentage of muzzle loading barrel makers are using 12L14. A large pecentage of lawyers are waiting for the chance to sue them. Do you think they would take that chance? Read this by Don Getz on barrels made from 12L14.


"Have you ever blown up a barrel made from 12L14 steel? We have taken 12" long pieces of barrel, threaded and breeched both ends, drilling a hole in it for a fuse, and blew it up.

From what has been said on this subject, one would think this would act like grenade, blowing shrapnel all over the place. Not so, it merely opened up like a banana peel.

We also did the same thing to a piece of barrel that was made in a foreign country, I won't say which one. Now, this one did act like a grenade, we found only about 1/3 of the barrel, the rest was blow to god knows where.

We also did a lot of proofing real thin barrels with huge loads, could not get them to blow. Also shot barrels with short started balls, could not get them to bulge or blow.

The only way we could get a bulge in the barrel was to load the barrel with powder and a patched ball pushed all the way down onto the powder, then short starting a ball on top of all this......bulged the barrel but did not blow it off.

As a result of all of this playing around, I kind of thought to myself that it's sort of foolish to proof a barrel, at least one of ours which I know how it is breeched.

There have been a lot of comments by people who have never made a barrel, nor did any experimental blow-ups. Unless you know what you're talking about you are doing a great disservice to the muzzleloading game...............Don"

Enjoy, J.D.

By the way, The foriegn barrels he refers that fragmented are made from 4140 modern barrel steel. I think that is what Caywood uses.

There are 10s of thousands of 12L14 barrels in use. Why?

Razor62 said:

Well, that settles it. That's kinda' what I figured. I knew that if I through it out here I'd learn the truth. Thank you gentleman and sorry J.D.
but I would feel just terrible if I handed that grenade, uh - barrel off to you and it blew itself to smithereens while you shooting it. :rotf:

I'd like to know what type of steel all the big names in modern muzzleloaders use for their barrels. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that at least a few of them use 12L14. Laffindog mentions that the vast majority of barrels in service are of this type of steel. If that's the case it would seem slanderous for Caywood to publish claims that they're unsafe. If one like myself who has very little knowledge of the different types of steel and their uses reads his article they'd be a little concerned as I was.
Based upon what I'm hearing here the only thing I'm suspect about now with regard to this topic is Mr. Caywood.

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users of 12L14 that I know of
Getz
Rice
Colerain
Hoyt

Most of the custom makers of muzzleloaders in the country use the barrels above.
Green Mountain used to use 1137 But they arent produceing muzzleloader barrels at the moment

There are other producers of barrels that Im not sure of what material they use
Charles Burton
Long Hammock
Rayl
Dehaas
Oregon Barrel Co
I think all except Rayl use 12L14 , but not sure

Sleepy Hill barrels
uses 4150 gun barrel steel if your interested


this has been discussed to death at American Longrifles forum. Do a search over there.
Myself, I wouldnt be afraid of any barrel made by any of the above makers.

There are 10s of thousands of 12L14 barrels in use. Why?

The answer is because it is easy to machine. not because it makes better rifle barrels.

I have quite a few ML and not one of them uses 12L14 barrel steel. Yep there are quite a few of them out there and they are still working just fine and most likely will not ever blow. But when you have choices, why would you buy a barrel made from steel that any expert will tell you is not designed for use in a gun?

Ask any barrel maker why they use 12L14 steel. The ONLY reason is that it is easy to machine, and I assume cheaper as well. It is not because it is safer, or better, or more accurate, but easier to machine for them.

I have a choice, and I have not bought a 12L14 barrel.

snapper

I’m sorry, but your point is that a harder to machine steel makes a better barrel?

fleener said:

But when you have choices, why would you buy a barrel made from steel that any expert will tell you is not designed for use in a gun?

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And I contend that just because a steel was designed for another purpose doesn't mean it won't make safe gun barrels.

If building CF smokeless rifles then it would be foolish to use anything other than gun barrel grade steel as that is what they have been tested and certified for. And yet coutless numbers of them have had failures too and there are recalls to proove it. How about stainless steel? Sako won't forget this recall anytime soon.
http://www.thegunzone.com/rifles-kb.html

Does using barrel grade steel ensure safety? It can't hurt, but ultimately your safety rest with the person/company certifying the steel and making the barrel.

Why use leaded steel? Because the other is not available in profiles necessary to replicate historically accurate rifles. Just because it is not "certified" for use in gun barrels doesn't mean it's not safe....it's just not "certified" and vice versa.

There are many things that aren't "certified" that are not unsafe. What are we to do? Do what we do taking all the necessary precautions to ensure we are safe as possible.

Fact is, those who won't use 12L14 because it isn't certified will continue not to and those that feel safe using it will contiue to do so as long as they are available.

If we submit to living in fear of what "might" happen we had all best find another hobby and turn in our car, truck and boat keys.

The numbers just don't lie. Enjoy, J.D.