Barrel Steel and safety...what's really what?

[Skychief]

I have a Douglas 32 caliber barrel manufactured "who knows when" and am half scared to use it. Let me explain....

I have been reading a lot of old threads here and elsewhere regarding barrel steels. Also, I am planning to buy a barrel or two at Friendship within the week, so, more research was done. In the end, I hope to KNOW if my Douglas is safe to shoot and what commercial manufacturers (specifically Green Mountain, Rice and Rayle) I can KNOW make their barrels with safe steel.

In my readings, I have realized that I am no metallurgist nor engineer. Terms such as DOM, cold rolled, seamless tubing, low carbon, pressure ratings, static pressure ratings, barrels which can not be proofed, Douglas barrels brittle and failing, 1018, 1025, 12L14, 4140, 8620, 1144, 1137, 4150, and an unbelievable amount of acronyms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :surrender:

I confess, I don't know what it all means. I just have always loved to shoot muzzleloaders (30 years worth), but, now feel totally confused and concerned regarding what is safe and what is not.

Will somebody please tell me which manufacturers are making "safe" barrels with "safe" steels? Again, is my Douglas barrel safe? How about the Bill Large barreled rifle I have shot for years? Did T/C use "safe" steels in their barrels?

Realize, if you say that Green Mountain uses 1137 for their barrels, it wont mean a thing to me. It would be more helpful to me if one were to say "Green Mountain barrels are perfectly safe if you don't do something like short start a load....and, by the way, the steel in their barrels is 1137".

I contacted Rice and they use 12L14. Again, this certification number means nothing to me. Are they safe?

This stuff is Greek to me and I am sure many others here. Will any of you just say what's what in layman terms possibly? If need be, please feel free to PT me regarding barrel safety if you don't feel comfortable openly posting.

Many thanks for any help in clarifying what has become a real concern for me nearly overnight! :shocked2:

Best regards, Skychief. :bow:

 

[Zonie]

I have never heard of a muzzleloading barrel that was made by a major factory that was unsafe when it was used as it was intended.
This includes Rice, Green Mountain, Thompson Center, Getz, Rahal, Douglas, Colerain, Bill Large and dam near anyone else you can name.

All of these makers use make their barrels from solid steel bars and at the pressures made by black powder all of these steel bars are strong enough providing the wall thickness at the breech is sufficient.
Tests done by the Military back in the Civil War days said if the breech area of the barrel was .200 or more it was safe and as far as I'm concerned this still applies with all barrels made with solid modern steel bars regardless of the number or name of the steel.

Notice I said "used as it was intended".
That boils down to using black powder or an accepted synthetic powder in recommended powder loads.

It means NOT using ANY kind of smokeless powder.

It means ramming the ball/bullet down so it rests on top of the powder.

It means not having any kind of plug be it snow or mud in the muzzle when the gun is fired.

Is this answer simple and non-technical enough?

If you want technical stuff I can add tensile strengths, yield strengths, elongation etc. :rotf:

 

[Skychief]

Glad to hear from you Zonie!

I hope my query came off as intended. I did NOT want to sound accusatory but just wanted to clear my mind of reports, even here, of failures even with your above safe handling rules being adhered to.

Some mention in the past of "the LaSalle" paper, as published in the Buckskin Report is included in past threads.

Thanks for replying and saving the tensile stuff! :haha:

Skychief. :thumbsup:

 

[Roy]

You can always send it to me to test it out... :grin: My first build was with a .32 Douglas barrel :thumbsup:

 

[rich pierce]

Behind nearly every barrel failure is a user who did something terribly wrong. Smokeless powder, is, after all, often "black" in color. I saw some terrible cheap guns in the 1970's abused horribly with black powder without failure. I've seen barrels bulged or burst at the muzzle by short starting a load and not ramming it home. That's the worst I've seen with black powder.

 

[Philip Lebow]

Learned colleagues,

Douglas barrels are perfectly safe, used as intended.
Douglas was sued out of the ML business when a shooter
blew the barrel up out of ignorance. Douglas was NOT at
fault, however the plaintiff won anyway. I believe the "black
powder" involved was Hercules Bullseye.
The plaintiff built a grenade, and suffered the consequences.
Somebody else MUST be to blame.
So say the lawyers......

Mainspring

 

[texcl]

Yup, fault has little to do with anything in civil cases. I'm a federal agent and I can tell you horror stories about civil cases gone wrong because someone felt sorry for the criminal that ended up hurting or killing himself in the comission of a crime. Costs the tax payers hundreds of millions every year, maybe more.

 

[Denny/Oh]

My first build {in the 70's} was a 7/8" .45 douglas barrel. I cut about 1 1/2" off of it to fit a walnut stock I had.

Its fired thousands of rounds and I don't hesitate to use it at all. Its still in pretty good shape inside too.

1214l is a leaded stock of mild steel that is pretty common in ML barrels. Maybe its not the perfect barrel steel but most barrels you will see are made of it. Yes you can blow it up as Zonie says but it will most likely be human error not material or quality.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

The liability/accident problem is why I get the willies every time some idiot posts or publishes that they use 28 pellets of Whupbutt ffffg Uranus powder under a six dollar plastic impregnated hollow point, hollow base, nylon tipped copper jacketed space module bullet for squirrel hunting. Some unknowing fool is gonna put that in his Chinese made not intended to be fired muzzleloader and blow his face off. Then his family will sue the manufacturer. Heaven knows there was some real manure on the market back around the early 1970's. But even most of the manure was serviceable with moderate loads.

I have a little single shot 410 perc gun with Belgium proofs and a twist barrel that I will NOT shoot. Back in the 1970's an American outfit made some special 13/16's 50 caliber barrels expressly for a particular type of shortrange offhand shooting with very light loads. it wouldn't take much to blow up one of those.

Back in the 1980's a guy near reading PA made a few smooth bore barrels by putting breech plugs in high pressure steam pipe. I imagine folks either have been hurt, or will be hurt by some of those. He actually gave me a short piece of the steam pipe to make cannon barrels. It still sets in the shop. I'd never use it for cannon barrels.

Then some alloys that have been used will work harden and become too brittle.

I have never heard a bad thing about Douglas barrels. Back in the 1970's Douglas was THE barrel brand. Green Mtn was just getting started and Numrich sold the run of the mill stuff.

A Douglas in 32 ought to be as innocuous as they come.

 

[tg]

I am pretty sure the Dopuglas equipment is still in use and they are good barrels the only problem I have seen is when the runout is not up and down but side to side which might cause the front and rear sigts to be set to the extreme opposite sides, which can look a bit funky.

 

[ohio ramrod]

Douglas was sued and stopped making ML barrels because of the law suit. But they are not only safe to use, for many years Douglas and Bill Large barrels were considered the premium barrels. Douglas barrels today sell for top dollar if you can find them. If you have any doubts about yours advertise it and sell it for enough to purchase any other brand you desire. :idunno:

 

[jerrywh]

I wish I could still buy douglas barrels. They were the best I ever used.
In my opinion all the main makers of muzzle loading barels today make good safe barrels.
Like Zoni implies, it's the shooters who are usually unsafe.

 

[tg]

Check with Deer Creek and see if they still have the old Douglas machine and are making any new barrels for any of their guns.They or the folks before them had the equipment I was told

 

[Skychief]

My confidence is restored and I thank all for the replies! :bow:

 

[ohio ramrod]

Jerry. I have been offered ten times what I paid for my Douglass 45 caliber barrel. If I would sell it from my target rifle. Nobody wants the whole rifle, but a lot of people want my barrel! I went to a rendezvous once and a guy looked at my rifle when I started the trail and asked , "Where did you get that crappy looking gun?" After the range officer turned in my score sheet and it was posted( top score ) the same guy came over and asked to see my rifle. He shouted out, "No wonder, this has a Douglas barrel on it !" :idunno: :idunno:

 

[Vaino]

A .45 cal. LR w/ a 7/8" Douglas bbl has been my squirrel/deer rifle on and off since 1978, has had 1000s of rds fired through it and is the most accurate rifle I've ever had. The bore runout was minimal and was denoted by the stamping which ended up on the bottom. Don't kmow how they finished the bore, but it's very smooth and many shots can be put through it before cleaning is necessary. Wish Douglas was still making them....Fred

 

[Denny/Oh]

Flehto,

As I said I got the same barrel.

When I got it all done I took it in the back yard stepped back abot 30 paces and drilled the bullseye dead center. Although I knew that was an extreme piece of luck I figured I had a keeper. That gun has been done over 3 times but the barrel is exactly the same.