Shooting Long-Range for Elk

I am shooting a side Hammer with peep sights. I am using 90 Grains of Swiss Powder and a 400 grain paper patch pure lead bullet. I am reasonable accurate to 300 yards with cross-sticks with a 8" groups at that distance and a 4 1/2" groups with a lead sled. The muzzle speed of the bullet is 1450 FPS.

The question is simply this: With the parameters above how long is the longest shot a person can reasonable ethically shoot an elk. I drew a limited entry ML hunt for elk in Utah. I know what I think, but thought it would be interesting in what all of you think.

I forgot, but the twist on the barrel is 1 in 24 inches.

cannonball1 said:

The question is simply this: With the parameters above how long is the longest shot a person can reasonable ethically shoot an elk.

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It depends entirely upon how accurately you can measure the distance and dope the wind. At the kind of range you're talking, they're not going to be at some fixed sight-in distance like on the range, and as you well know, being off on distance by as little as 20 yards can make a big difference in POI.

Wind is another manner, especially when shooting across rough terrain. It's common for wind to be blowing in several different directions over those ranges, an as you also know there are no range flags to help you track the changes and make sighting adjustments. Even a change from 5mph up to 10mph and back down to 5mph over hundreds of yards spells gut shots.

We have kind of a funny record going on our place in the Rockies. All, and I mean ALL, of the long range muzzlers have needed follow-up shots and often extensive tracking jobs. The guys using PRB's (several of them previous long range triers on the same land) have perfect 1-shot records on elk. Mostly cuzz they worked to get inside 100 yards and make good clean shots.

Your tag, your hunt and your choice to shoot. But being the guy doing the extensive tracking and follow-up shots on our own place, I have to confess that I'm really happy I'll be nowhere near your efforts.

You're assuming my efforts are very long range, but I know how hard elk are to bring down with a ML and I have already downed an elk with a 62 caliber flintlock. I just thought it would be fun to see what others think about an ethical shot distance.

When I was about 24 I shot a nice 6 pt at 180 yds. He was broadside and standing. Last nite of the hunt and light enough only in the field to legally shoot. I had a CVA .54 hawkin shooting Conical and zeroed to 75 yds. Aimed 3' over him and at 180 yds hit him good. I strongly urge you to practice getting closer not shooting further. These elk deserve it. I was young n dumb and dang lucky. Would not do it again. As per above variables will get ya. A elk hit bad is not easily recovered by the hunter. They get eaten the next day by bears n such. If ya wanna shoot far getcha a rifle tag and go for it, I'd recommend a .300 winmag or bigger for bull. They have an incredible will to live.

"ethical" shot distance is the distance you can hit an 8" paper plate EVERY TIME offhand. More ethical is off hand after jogging 75 yds uphill.

I hunt fence/water now and stay withing 75 yds of suspected elk crossing. Pop up blinds are great. Ya can read an entire Louis LaMoure novel a day in there and they cant see ya :grin:

cannonball1 said:

You're assuming my efforts are very long range, but I know how hard elk are to bring down with a ML and I have already downed an elk with a 62 caliber flintlock. I just thought it would be fun to see what others think about an ethical shot distance.

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You're splitting hairs. YOU brought up 300 yard shooting with 8" groups. If you didn't want a reaction to that and game shooting, why in tarnation did you even bring it up?

Idaho Ron is about the best long range shot I've seen on here, based upon his informative and detailed posts, both on the range and on hunts. I'll let him speak for himself because I admire him and his dedication to detail and practice. But I don't recall him EVER talking about 300 yard shots and hunting in the same breath.

I live in the Rockies also and elk are 15 miles from my house. I know how hard elk are to down and have shot a elk with a 62 caliber flintlock. Shooting animals over the years are no stranger to me. I hunt on government land, not a private land club. They are real here with competition of other hunters. A rangefinder would be my buddy. Wind is something else. You're assuming that I am looking for long range shooting. I just thought it would be interesting what others think. That's all.

Personally, with perfect conditions (accurate ranging, open ground, broadside animal, no wind, a solid rest, etc) I would maybe go 125 yards. That would be with one of the two 45 TCs I have with Lyman 57 peep sights and Greenmountain LRH barrels on them shooting paper patched bullets (similar to Idahoron’s Hot Rod Hawkens). Although I know 45 caliber muzzleloaders are not even legal for elk in many areas, which would keep me out of the game.

By the way, I do practice out to 300 yards with these guns and they will shoot fantastic groups at the distance. I suggested an ethical hunting distance of 125 yards as I like to practice at double or more than any distance I would shoot with a specific gun.

Whenever the question of how far would you shoot comes up I always remember my father saying ”˜do your hunting before you shoot’. Guess he was a fan of Elmer.

:thumbsup:

cannonball1 said:

I just thought it would be interesting what others think. That's all.

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And now you know. You asked for it, and you got it. Enjoy the moment! :rotf:

Good answer SDS. Here is another question. Which would be the best 45 Caliber bullet for elk? Lets say a 300 grain Hornady XTP hollow point or a 400 grain nearly pure lead round nose cast bullet both being pushed by 90 grains of black powder.

First off, I do not like nor use the word "ethical". That is a parameter put on something by societal norms that varies widely and rarely has scientific backing. It is either legal or illegal and then highly probable or highly unlikely. If it is legal, everything else is up to you and I am not going to judge for your decision.

So, if you have a .45, 400 grain, 1450 fps and your sighted in so you know you can hit at 300 yards with decent groups I would refer to calculations of velocity and energy. You'd be running the projectile around 875 fps and having about 1100 Ft/P energy.

Textbooks vary, but some say 1000-1200 Ft/P energy for elk. You got that. Penetration for a 400 grain .45 @ 875 fps on ballistic media is more than sufficient to get into an elks vitals.

Airgun hunters are using ballistic very similar to yours to take elk and other big game (usually with a 100-yard limit). They are getting at the muzzle what you are seeing at 300 yards.

I have seen 45-70's with 405 grain shot very accurately to 300 yards. With a standard or black powder load, you are duplicating the ballistics. The jacked up loads may shoot 3 or 4 hundred feet per second faster at the muzzle, but that gain is gone by the 300 yard mark.

You are confident and can make the shot? Go for it.

Good information.

Would not consider the 300 grain XPT an Elk bullet, plus that type of bullet is not discussed here.

IF, I were to hunt elk with a 45 caliber lead bullet, I would be looking at something between 350 and 450 grains with a wide Meplat. I would cast it out of lead with a bit of tin in it (I use 40:1, resulting in a Brinell of around 8.5). Some folks find they need to be at 8.0/8.5 for shooting accuracy in the Greenmountain LRH SS barrels. My LRH barrels are not SS (one is blue, one has been browned) and both seem to shoot 'pure' lead well. I like the 40:1 because the bullets seem to really stay put on the powder charge. I have had pure lead bullets move. Not a good thing.

Can't recommend a lead bullet for elk, as I have never shot an elk, but what I would use right now is the 11MM bullet IdahoRon suggested some time back. My RCBS mold (44-370-FN) I believe casts a slug just over 400 grains (would have to check on weight). Paper patched and sized (again as IdahoRon suggests) it does everything I want to 300 yards and beyond.

You really need to hear from IdahoRon, he is the subject matter expert on this topic.

Below are a couple photographs of the mold for an idea of what the bullet looks like.

cannonball1,
Some people have the natural ability and the acquired ability to make long range hunting with muzzleloader trajectories a reality.
You got the will and the abilities, go for it.

:bow:

My only thoughts on the matter are that at such range you must rely upon weight of lead to deliver the lethal blow, which means of course that straightening out the trajectory with a lighter weight bullet won't work.

By the way, my small bore rifle is a modified .458 bore diameter TC New Englander re-engineered to serve as a .45 heavy bullet carbine shooting off the shelf .45 rifle molds. I'd like to have a longer barreled version of the same rifle (a modern day half stock Volunteer or Whitworth).

FWIW I personally have had EXCELLENT luck with the Hornady Great Plains Bullets. If they group I'd say use them FOR SURE.

cannonball1 said:

Here is another question. Which would be the best 45 Caliber bullet for elk? Lets say a 300 grain Hornady XTP hollow point or a 400 grain nearly pure lead round nose cast bullet both being pushed by 90 grains of black powder.

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Like others said we don't discuss jacketed bullets....But I will say something about them.

Jacketed hollow points tend not to function at subsonic velocities....So you need to consider the impact velocity of any projectile, because velocity more than any other factor is what kills.

Hmmm...so many variables to concider.
I've seen Idaho Ron shooting long distance and was totally impressed with what could be done shooting the muzzleloader!
But under hunting conditions where wind, snow, rain, lighting, elevation, barometric pressure, temperature, distance determination, animal shifting position, also adding mental & physical stress and exertion. ..I would cut that distance to 150 yards max!