Touch Hole size

Oatsayo all,
What are your thoughts on enlarging the touch hole in my .50 rifle so as to have it self prime?
I did this on my Bess and it works pretty good. My rifle is alot more expensive to go messing with though. I like the idea. What do you think?

Rules differ on many ranges. At NMLRA events, and shoots that use those same rules, you are NOT allowed to prime the gun until you are on the firing line, with the muzzle pointed down range. The rules require the gun be loaded BEHIND the firing line- usually at a bench provided for that purpose.

So, check the rules. I think you lose a lot of pressure/velocity opening the vent up enough to self prime- particularly if you are using FFg. If you are using FFFg, its much less a problem, because the vent hole does not have to be enlarged as much.

If you do open it up to self-prime, you can comply with the rules at the ranges that restrict priming by putting a toothpick into the vent, before loading the powder, patch and Ball. Then, when you are on the firing line, with the barrel pointed down range, you can remove the toothpick, and give the gun a slap, or whack of the butt of your hand on the off-side. That should make some of the powder in the barrel exit the vent into your pan.

Because You can't control the amount of powder that flows from the main charge into the pan, priming either before or after loading the powder patch and ball into the barrel, The Accuracy of your gun is affected adversely. A few granules of powder, in a large caliber musket( .75), one way or another, is not going to significantly change the POI of any projectile you shoot.

Without rifling, accuracy is " Minute of plate!" Some members here work very hard on their loads, and their shooting skills, and can shoot very small groups even out at 100 yds with a smoothbore. But, these same members will also shoot much smaller groups with a rifle in their hands. With the smaller caliber rifle- .50 caliber is what you are using---- changes in powder charges do move the POI. I shoot a .50, and off a bench rest, I can easily see the differences.

However, what any of us call " Accuracy" is very personal, and I gather that many people here think " minute of 6" plate" at 50 yards is all they require. If your shots are going to be limited to that short range, then I don't think self-priming is going to spoil your groups, using that standard of measurement. :thumbsup:

Tsegoweleh said:

"...What are your thoughts..."

Click to expand...

My thoughts:
On the one hand, its a hobby...you said you like the idea...go for it.
It would be easy and low risk if you have a vent liner...if you didn't like the result just get a new liner.

On the other hand, if not a liner, then you'd be making a permanent change to the ML of course...which could then probably be remedied by installing a liner later...but then what does that do to your ML's historical accuracy if that's important to you.

Its a hobby...bottom line is its your decision

Tsegoweleh said:

Oatsayo all,
What are your thoughts on enlarging the touch hole in my .50 rifle so as to have it self prime?
I did this on my Bess and it works pretty good. My rifle is alot more expensive to go messing with though. I like the idea. What do you think?

Click to expand...

Enlarging the touch hole will increase the amount of volume of the side blast, your "gain" in self priming may not outweigh the "loss" of pressure and the gun's overall performance could suffer.

If you have a removable touchhole liner, I would suggest buying a few "extras" and drill out the holes to different diameters and then simply install and evaluate each size, then go from there. This way you can always replace the liner with the original one, should the idea of self priming doesn't pan out.

Personally, I don't see what's to be gained with self priming. It seems that it would take a pretty big hole to self prime. Is it worth the larger side blast, loss of velocity and maybe of consistency? Just my ramblings on the topic.

I'm a newb so my questions are not meant to offend- they are made out of genuine ignorance. That said, what is the advantage to be gained by this? Why do it at all in other words.

I have see a guy whose gun wouldn't fire due to oil in the bore pull out his vent liner and fire the gun that way. It did fire and clear that time so I guess easier ignition is a possibility. Is easier ignition what you're after here?

What's the goal?

Thanks for any input.

In my opinion and experience, any touch hole on a rifle larger than 1/16" reduces accuracy. The larger the hole, the more variation in breech pressures. That said, it all depends on the degree of accuracy you want, or can live with. 5/64" seems to work OK, but I doubt you will find many that large among serious competition shooters.

My question as with the others is why? But getting past that, my rifle will occaisionally self prime and it has a small touch hole-no liner. I think the main impediment to self priming would be fouling on the inside of the bore. That would be further complicated if you have a patent type breech. So either you will be cleaning every shot or at the least picking the hole every shot to help assure flow of powder into the pan. So, either you have to open the pan to pick the hole prior to loading, or you have to open the pan to make sure it has "self primed" prior to shooting. If you have to take this step anyway, does it really take that much longer to dump some prime in the pan? :hmm: Also,as stated elsewhere, many ranges require the pan to be open until on the firing line where you may then prime.

I guess I've been pounded over the head by the safety people too often but, in order for a flintlock to "self prime", it has to be loaded with the frizzen closed.

To my way of thinking, this is a dangerous proposition.

Half cocks have been known to fail and someone not concentrating on the task at hand can easily screw up and put the cock at the full cock position.
In this condition, all it takes is a small bump to accidently cause the cock to fall, striking the frizzen with the flint.
Should this happen while pouring the powder or ramming the ball.....well, the possible results are obvious.

That said, coupled with the greater inconsistancy in accuracy due to the oversize vent hole needed, I cannot recommend that anyone should try to make their flintlock "self priming".

Leather Hammer Stall provides the additional safety

True but that only adds two more steps to the process of loading the gun.

Put on the Hammer Stall
Take off the Hammer Stall

Hmm. :hmm:
I wonder if they sell a Lead Hammer Stall? :rotf:

Zonie said:

True but that only adds two more steps to the process of loading the gun.
Put on the Hammer Stall
Take off the Hammer Stall

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Well, if it was me and I already put a hammer stall on and off when hunting, I'd just have to make it the first step instead of the last. Personally have no interest in a self primer but a good leather hammer stall would in fact add the safety element.

I wonder if they sell a Lead Hammer Stall?

Click to expand...

Don't know, but you could open a thread on that and ask for input, theories, etc, like you would announce a "call for papers" on a subject
:wink:

Zonie said:

Hmm. :hmm:
I wonder if they sell a Lead Hammer Stall? :rotf:

Click to expand...

The plot thickens... :stir: :rotf:

Zonie said:

Half cocks have been known to fail and someone not concentrating on the task at hand can easily screw up and put the cock at the full cock position.

Click to expand...

My brother's and I once did this test, we witnessed an unloaded (but primed) flintlock going off by snagging the cock on a branch hard enough to disengage the sear past the fly but not enough to bring it to full cock. There was enough force left in the main spring to make sufficient sparks and set off the pan powder.

So a self priming pan poses other dangers, like when you are loading the gun, or hoisting it into a tree stand through branches, or moving through thick undergrowth. There is also greater area for moisture to seep into the main charge because of the increased hole diameter.

Bottom line, it is Tsegoweleh's firearm and he must make the choice that best suites his needs.

Well to play Devil's Advocate here, a gun that self primes is only going to use 5 or so grains from the main charge for prime. Pouring an additional amount of powder with the main charge easily compensates for this. Jos. Manton made Vee-pan locks that were extremely fast and were also be used in a self-priming application. A #46 drill will allow a pan to self-prime with 2f powder. 1f would probably require at least a 3/32 drill. True you will lose a little velocity due to the increased pressure loss, which is easily compensated for by increasing the load. All this being said it does not address modern safety concerns in an adequate fashion. If the gun fires while pouring powder the worst you will get is burned fingers and imbedded carbon in your hand but if it fires while ramming the ball you will probably lose one or more fingers and one of them could be your trigger finger. Use your own best judgment here.

Tse
I've seen rifles that had enlarged touch holes and were used on seneka runs and other timed events or on tacticals and it had it's benefits. But like others have said you loose accuracy and make the gun loaded as soon as you dump the charge. Are you wanting to self prime or enlarge the touch hole to get even?
George

My Bess has almost 1/8" touch hole. It will self prime when clean but not after the first shot. I don't really see any advantage to self priming and it can be a safety issue. My Bess doesn't seem to have lost any accuracy due to the enlarged touchhole. I just beat a bunch of rifles and smoothbores with it this last weekend.

IMHO - Enlarge the touch hole to 1/16" to improve reliability and speed. Don't enlarge any further so as to self prime.

Many Klatch

What size is the flash hole now? I had a rifle that would self prime with Swiss powder, probably 2F at that. So try Swiss 3F (it is very good powder) and it might self-prime where Goex 2or 3F would not. Then you could test if you like the idea.

Oatsayo All,
I want to really thank you all for your input on this subject.
I really haddent considered the possable accident from the lock accidentaly going off while loading.
This is a really good thought. I think Ill keep it like it is. Its very reliable and like one said. It really doesent take that long to prime. Im not in a hurry anyway.
Thanks again Guys. :hatsoff:

You would then be back to an extra step, having to remove the hammer stall before firing. oops-day late and a dollar short.

Yes, that's correct...if you put a hammer stall on you have to take it off to fire the Flintlock...its a safety device